YOU seem to be angry always. Why?
May be it is because I know a lot more than others about the rot in our system. I know how our people are being deceived and how our leaders continue to hoodwink us and sell us dummies, which give us the impression that they are good guys. Meanwhile, they are just full of rubbish, deceiving people and playing on the intelligence of Nigerians. They make it seem as if they have respect for the rule of law, good governance and democracy, whereas the only thing they know is just stealing from the people and using the stolen money to deceive the people.
I am angry with this. I am angry because I think it is unfair and God himself, I believe, will be angrier with these leaders. When you know so much about these leaders as I do, you certainly will not be able to hide your anger away from these people.
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During the last interface organised by the Nigeria Labour Congress, you talked about corrupt council chairmen and governors jostling for positions in the next dispensation. You need to give us some details about those in that category you have investigated or are investigating.
See what some of the governors have done and are continuing to do. Some of them just get there and use the state money for their personal interests and also use the same money to campaign in order to be where they are or even higher platforms. Their aim is to remain in positions, where they can continue to do the same damage to the people. Yet, you see governors, who will chop off the hands of poor people for stealing goats, whereas they are stealing millions and billions. We see them and know that it is not right or fair.
We also see what the local government officials are doing; they are amassing wealth, left, right and centre. Go to their own accounts and see what they have. They have acquired and are still acquiring all sorts of property and wealth. They always look like it is their wedding day; always looking flamboyant, yet there is nothing on the ground to bring succour and smiles to the people.
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It is too bad and it is the trend almost in all local governments across the country. And you see these officials fighting and getting people to come and sing their praises by paying them peanuts from stolen public funds, which they are supposed to hold in trust. This is a fact, which every Nigerian knows about; it is not hidden.
When you know what some of these governors - the so-called presidential aspirants - are doing every day, then you will really be upset at such brigandage. Open the newspapers and you see them taking adverts on a daily basis; that is very embarrassing and shameless. Where did they get this money? Is it not because by virtue of their governorship that they are in control of state funds? Of course, that is the fact. They use these state funds, which are under their control, to pay for adverts on the pages of newspapers - adverts that are to pursue their own personal interests. That is bad, immoral, unfair and illegal.
So, we say we are going to challenge them because this country belongs to all of us. Just because you are in a privileged position should not confer undue advantage to you as a governor or local government official. After all, you are not more of a Nigerian than any other person! If you have acquired a right to steal, then we have the right to fight you. It is our country and nobody has more right than the other and so, we say we are going to take up the challenge.
We will use the available information at our disposal and resources and power that we have to fight them. We are not going to sit down and watch; we will stand on the side of our people and fight for their justice. Let them continue to do what they are doing; history and posterity will judge them.
We just saw what happened in Ekiti State. There seems to be a new trend that if you cannot get the 'Oga', the people who allegedly perpetrated some of the fraudulent acts are being taken in. Are you going to continue in that direction?
Yes, that is the direction we are going to be moving for now and several states will be coming into our nets very soon. We will get them; we have got conviction for those who helped Dariye to steal. So, why are the people no longer talking about selective justice? They said we were always targeting the people who are not close to Mr. President. But look at Ekiti State governor; he is probably the closest to the President and see what has happened? Nobody is talking about it, why? Because once you go after the bad people, people know and they even cheer.
But let me tell you the good news: whether it is somebody loyal to the president or not; we will go after you, once you are bad. Your closeness to Mr. President will not confer any immunity on you. We are blind to any political coloration or affiliation; it is not important to us.
I am happy that all are beginning to understand. If it were before, you will hear them shout, "Oh! It is because I am loyal to this opponent, that is why EFCC is after me." Or "EFCC is after me because I stood against third term." You remember that is what people were saying at a point. But this time, it is not convenient for them to talk like that. In any case, the fight will continue; we have no intention of slowing down.
Those who think they will have an easy ride in 2007; those who think that it is business as usual are making a grave mistake. And it is not just EFCC; it is the resolve of Nigerians. We are just carrying out the wishes of Nigerians, just what they want to see happening in our country. Do you think these characters we have can stand up anywhere and say they want to contest for political office anywhere in the world and get a platform to further their political ambition?
But the new Electoral Act does not give the EFCC any role to play in the clearance of candidates for the 2007 elections. How are you going to come round it?
We are not talking about the Electoral Act; we are talking about people committing crimes, whom we want to come against.
Yes! But you cannot bring them to justice just like that except you charge them to court. Some of them are campaigning already even as we talk.
They can go ahead and campaign. But that will not shield them from being taken to court and tried for their crimes. If they want, why they are facing criminal trial, they can go ahead and face election. But it will not stop us from doing our own work. We will do our work and our work is if you steal, if you commit money laundering or violate any of our laws, be prepared to face the wrath of our law. That's all. If that is going to affect and cut down their appetite for stealing, then good for our country.
Our intention is to carry out the laws and enforce them. We will not shy away from bringing these so-called big men to face the law if they run foul of it. Nigeria has changed, your political office has become too small to give you protection and stop us from coming after you. We will get you, no matter what, once you get on the other side of the law. Your political office is no longer a big deal, as you will not be treated differently from the civil servant or banker who steals.
The fact is that if you steal, I will make it public and then carry you to court. That is what the rule of law is about. Let us just ensure that there is equal treatment for all irrespective of status and position in society. Everyone should be made to account just like every Nigerian. That is what we are doing. So, if people are translating it to mean that we want to ban corrupt politicians from vying for political office, then it is a good thing. After all, nobody wants a thief to lead him. Is it right?
So, if we have a case that can stand the test of prosecution, why should we shy away and allow you to find another way of getting into power and do the same thing that they have been doing? They are even taking over the media. Do a fact-finding; you will see what I am talking about. Criminals are taking over the media and gradually you people will be working for criminals, as the media are not in the hands of good people; that is the reality.
'What Is Selective About A Case That We Have Been Able To Prove?'
TALKING of perception, there are some governors who are very close to the President that have never been touched in spite of many question marks on them.
Let me tell you this perception is built around deceitful campaigners. You see we are fighting very, very bad people. There are those who deceived and cheated the rest of Nigerians; they have so much money. They therefore need to raise a campaign of calumny, a campaign of giving us a bad name in order hang us more or less, for us to be discredited. They know that they have no power again to influence us or stop us from work, but the only thing is that what we are doing is the right thing.
They want the system to continue, and now that there is an instruction to fight them, they are left with no option than to tell Nigerians not to support us. When we arrest people, take money from them and deny them their positions, strip them of their office, you do not expect them to fold their arms and allow us to carry out our duties; they will certainly fight us. And the only way they will fight us is through this blackmail, to build a wrong perception and say that it was selective.
What is selective about a case that we have been able to prove? Some of us stake our lives to go after these criminals and seize the money from them and return it to the government and not to our own pockets. For God's sake, there is no way we can stop this fight, unless we have to go back to the old system. If that is what Nigerians want fine and good. And Nigerians should tell us to return the $150 million we got from Tafa Balogun, and we should also return the close to $50 million we got from DSP (Alamieyeseigha) and give it back to him. Nigerians should tell us to return the money we seized from Dariye to him. This is exactly what they are telling us.
The issue of selective justice means that they want you to do more; that also means that a lot of the bad people are still in the system.
(Cuts in) How can we do more if all they are saying is that there is selective justice?
We live in a country where the incomes of those in charge of our affairs are not known. How do you get financial intelligence so that we can know everybody's worth?
Thank God, we are now about building the structures and institutionalising the process of devising a means of having a real financial intelligence unit, which this country did have before now. If we fold our hands, then there is no hope for Nigeria because it will be a cyclical thing. Always, we keep complaining and talking. Look at, for example, the media. The media have been fighting corruption and bad governance for about 30 to 40 years in this country and if you got a partner, I believe you could have done it more effectively than you have done.
If you go through Nigeria's history, you see what the media did as far back as, for example, the Joseph Tarka case, and so many instances where the media would take on something and fight it to the end. But maybe they never got the support of the authority and therefore, not really very effective.
Today you have the authority. Today you have the authority also on your side, and I think it is a welcome development. Collectively, we can say enough is enough. And then, we know what is going on. These people, if you keep them, will take over completely. But we have an advantage of having anti-money laundering law in Nigeria; it is a very good one, a vibrant one and a powerful one that requires people to justify their source of income. It's the same thing with the EFCC Act. Whatever you claim as your own, you are duty bound to explain how you acquired it. And this is a new development.
But more importantly, like you say, we have people who claim to be very successful business men, and you never heard of how many factories they have had in their life and what is it that they have been producing, so on and so forth. You see people who spent major part of their life in factory service, suddenly emerging with stupendous wealth, claiming to be successful businessmen.
These are things that we require answers for. People must ask questions. EFCC is doing it and so what? Nigerians must also ask and they are entitled to ask. If you are rich, how did you make this money? Some people will claim that whatever they have is from God. But how did they do it? What is it that they have touched? We want to know. Moreso, when we know clearly and visibly how you are making the money: when you are in control and influencing and directing the usage of resources the way you like, you are giving out contracts, you are in charge of public funds, and you claim to be a successful businessman. This is laughable; you cannot fool us always. And even if you fool us, it will be for a short period of time.
Most of them who claim to be rich, we know the sources of their money. Those who make declaration of assets, we follow it up; we never followed it before to establish or verify the veracity of their claims. We find that out now. One good thing about it is that we got these things through the banks. If you go and buy a property, it will be traced. We see the source of the money and who owns it and where the documentation took place and all that.
All these things are not very difficult to verify. For example, now that the property of DSP (Alamieyeseigha) in America has been forfeited, last week, we got a forfeiture order from South Africa. The world has changed; wherever they are taking the property, the long arm of the law will return it to us. Things have changed in the country; there is a change in the world; the world is becoming open and transparent and there is accountability in the country now than before.
Do you have enough data to track these people outside and inside the country?
(Cuts in) We have them. We are working; we will not tell you that we have 100 per cent data, but if you are able to do something that will send a clear message and we go after them. We have achieved something.
Could you give us an update on the Presidential Library?
The Presidential Library was never a hidden thing; it was never; it was published. It (money) is for a foundation and not for President Obasanjo. We understand that even President Obasanjo donated to the foundation. It is just like a group of Nigerians coming together to form a foundation and they are still available; they will be called to come and explain the money collected. How are they using it for the purpose or for the common good that it was meant for? I think there was no government money or money taken from any governor for the foundation. It was carried out openly and publicly. The governors present said, "on behalf of my family and friends." Does it mean the state fund?
What about the presidential jet?
We've got into it and got in touch with the company that built it and very soon, we will come out with a report.
How are you managing the Otunba Fasawe and Mike Adenuga problem?
You know the work we do normally we keep quiet and not talk about them in the open, until we are ready to talk, like these Fasawe and Adenuga cases.
Any update?
No comment! (Laughter)
What about the 'yahoo boys'?
Part of our effort is to arrest and control them because it is eating deep into our system. All the young ones are deep in it. We are going after those boys; we are bringing them to justice. I can assure you. We have a new law on Cybercaf?. Internet providers and the telecommunication companies must also sit up and police their own industry, to ensure that it is protected and not misused by fraudsters. And hopefully, they will start doing the right thing, if not, we'll descend on them.
What are the implications of the list we got from the financial person tax force?
First and foremost it is like after a very bad period in the history of our country, we are punished for wrong doings. Now, we have started doing the right thing. It's the result of the programmes of reform that took place in our country in the past three to four years; especially EFCC was more or less created to bring sanity. And we have been able to change how business is carried out in this country, and the world is taking note. So many banks, particularly international banks, are suddenly interested in the investment opportunity in Nigeria.
So many opportunities are opened as a result of the de-listing. It was a very bad badge, giving us a bad image as a country that is not credible, not trustworthy, whose system does not work very well. They paint Nigeria as one whose funds and resources are not well protected, owing to fraudulent activities. This had had an overwhelming negative effective. And the world being a global village, we cannot do business alone.
'The Heat On Me, EFCC Is Too Much'
WHAT is your most challenging assignment in investigation, prosecution and handling the difficulties thereof?
One of the difficulties of the job is to work on people who are very close to you and there is nothing you can do about it. You must do it. Yes. But my only hope and prayer is that they will understand that we do what is right for our country and for our people. I have lost friends, I have lost people and I have lost those who we grew up together.
I have lost those we have had a wonderful life together because of this work I am doing. But it is something we have to do and they should understand. It is nothing personal, selfish but for the common good of our people. I find myself in this position not that I lobbied for it. But the fear of God keeps me moving and believing that what we are doing is the right thing.
You had talked about how Nigeria's debt had risen to $40 billion over the periods. What is EFCC doing it?
What we did was to participate in the whole process of debt relief. Thank God, under the good leadership of Mr. President and of Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, we finally got the debt relief. And everybody knows what happened: How failure to handle it very well led to more or less the stage we found ourselves. But history, importantly, will guard us against such things happening again.
Those who are responsible for such debts, if even they do not get the punishment here will surely get it in the world after. God sees what they have done to us. Some of them became successful businessmen and that is what Nigerians like. That is why you see them condemning us and if that is what Nigerians want, let us pack our things and go and let them continue looting our country.
But Nigerians know that you are working for the country?
But unfortunately, those people who have the opportunity to steal or have the monopoly of means to talk are attacking us terribly.
Everybody is free to say what he wants to say for public interest. Why worry?
Of course! It is not that we are worried. If we are worried, we could not have got to where we are now. We are not. We have developed a thick skin. But we feel that Nigerians should also understand what is going on. I think it is important people should know what is going on. The heat is too much.
Did you actually apologise to Gen. Ibrahim Babangida in Minna?
Something that we have been talking in the past two years! I say no to that claim. I never did. Why should I go to Minna and for what reason? The people who need apology are not people like me, but them.
One of the image problems you are going to have is the third term. How did you feel the day the third term was thrown out and realising that the President is not going to take part in the next elections?
I don't want to be dragged into politics.
But you were being dragged into it. Critics say you pick up people who were opposed to the tenure elongation project.
Never! Ask them the single person we picked? Throw this question to those who are making the allegation. I never and we never interfered with the third term. In fact, we stopped the work we are doing during that period simply because we did not want to be misunderstood. By that time, if you go after a governor, they would say because he is against it. That is the reason we stopped work during that period.
There was a very important constitutional process taking place in our country and it involved these key people we have been working on. But because we did not want insinuations and misinterpretations made over our work, we suspended work. And after the constitutional review was over, we got back to our work. But not even a single person can say that we went after him.
What is your perception of the media and your message to them?
The media ought to have been and should live up to their traditional roles. They have always been the ones fighting for justice, for fairness, for good governance, for transparency and for accountability in our system. They have done it all these while alone, but they have people they can work with now. Why the sudden shift in position? But there are few elements in the media that will never compromise their position.
But more importantly, the media practitioners have to work to ensure that they protect their profession because there are few of them who do things not too differently from those bad eggs in government. There is also a big infiltration of the media by people with questionable character. Those who make money through dubious means and come to use the money to control the media and use it to deceive Nigerians and continue to mess up our country. There are professionals in the media who will not like to work for crooks. Better, better!
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