Skip to main content

Adedibu has no shame-Rasheed Ladoja-Vanguard

November 25, 2006

How has it been since you left office unceremoniously?
No, I didn?t leave office unceremoniously. If I left unceremoniously, there wouldn?t have been outcry. So, I left ceremoniously. I have been in good health, my friends are around me and my family have been very supportive.
Some of your associates when you were in government must have gone the other way...
Even the Yoruba say 20 childhood friends cannot play for 20 years. Some people have faith that we will come back, while some do not believeing that the wheel of justice might drag on for too long.

googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('content1'); });

Out of office, what are the lessons you have learnt?
There is no new lesson for me to learn. There is nothing that happened that we did not know could happen or that had not happened before. There was provision for impeachment in the constitution and we saw it coming. We tried as much as possible to avoid it, because we were playing the game according to the rules. The rule says two-thirds. So, as long as they get the constitutional requirement, there is no problem but they flouted the constitution flagrantly. We believe that our chief judge(Oyo) knew what he was doing, and that the people are educated enough to know the constitutional provision of getting two-third before impeachment can sail through.


We believe that the panel which was headed by a Senior Advocate of Nigeria would have known the constitutional provisions. We had too much trust in the system. It is so sad that people who are supposed to be upright decided to bend themselves. That is the only thing that is sad about the whole episode. There is no way you can practise democracy without people. It is a game of rule. It is just like playing a ball without players.

How would you assess the Nigerian judicial system since the case began?
The notion that the wheel of justice drags slowly or justice being delayed has been there before I was born. The judicial system in Nigeria should be reviewed. The wheel of justice dragging slowly should be reviewed. The era of judges writing with long hand should be discouraged when computers are available for most people.

googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('content2'); });

Things are changing fast nowadays. In those days, before you can make international call, you had to go to a particular place but now with GSM in your hand, you can call anywhere in the world. Some people just deliberately slow the wheel of justice. It is not that they don?t know what they are doing is wrong, but they are doing it to ??So, there is need for us to look at the situation where cases like this are handled in a constitutional court with dispatch. It is not all cases that should be referred to the normal court. So, the decision of the Supreme Court is a total departure from the norm?.
Among the operators of the judicial system, we have the chief judge of the state.

He was not put there as a spectator, he heads the highest legal body in the state. And for a CJ to say that yes they wrote him a letter and he did not know who wrote the letter; that he didn?t know who the Speaker was and that he didn?t know whether they had met the two-third, when they had not met the 2/3, he should complain. He is supposed to uphold the constitution. This is very unfortunate. Since the Appeal Court has ruled, we hope that the Supreme Court will uphold the judgment. We put our faith in God and the Supreme Court justices.

A lot of things have been happening in the system. I believe, in my own case, a lot of lessons would have been learnt.
It is said that your problem was as a result of your cold relationship with President Obasanjo and being supportive of Vice President Atiku Abubakar?

That is not true. I know President Obasanjo very well before contemplating of coming back as a civilian president. Though I was not close to him like some people, I was a regular caller at Ota. In fact, when I went on exile, he(Obasanjo) said he would meet me at the airport on my way back to the country, but before I came back from Umrah at that time, he had been picked up for attempted coup. That was how close we were. So, it is not true that we were not friendly. But Mr. President has a problem. His problem is that he wants states to be independent. He doesn?t want to interfere with the running of the state.

For Mr. Vice President, I extended the normal courtesy his office demands. There is nothing more.
They said you were in the VP?s camp
That is not true. As at the time I left office, the relationship between the President and the VP was very cordial. Even the third term palaver did not come up until April and I was not in the office then to take sides. I left office in January. So, people are just trying to read meaning to situation.
In an interview you once said Alhaji Lamidi Adedibu was not an issue, but in another interview you said he(Adedibu) was your father.

How do you reconcile these statements?
The man is not an issue. I mean he was not disturbing me when in office. He could make a demand and if I felt such demand could be accommodated, of course I would accommodate it. And if they were demands that could not be accommodated, I won?t. And I said he was not disturbing me. What was I doing that he would disturb me. He was not asking us not to pay salaries or carrying out our functions. He can make noise. As far as I am concerned anybody can make noise, but the noise does not translate into action.

It is you(journalists) that encourage him to make noise.

How?
Because you are the one that call him strongman of Ibadan politics when we Ibadan people know he, Adedibu, is not strong politically. Although, he may have been in politics since politics started in Nigeria, his first encounter with my family was in 1954. He ran for councillorship election with my father and my father defeated him. I came into politics in 1992, I ran for Senate and I won. We (I and Adedibu) disagreed after the annulment of June 12, 1993 election because we got to know about the letter he wrote to IBB urging him to annul the election. I ran on the platform of Ibadan/ Ibarapa Senatorial District, at that time I won.

That was in 1994. When I came back from exile, I joined the UNCP, Baba was in DPN; we defeated him even in his local government. Again, when I wanted to contest for the Senate in Ibadan/Ibarapa, two days to the election, I was told that the power - that - be would not allow me to contest because they said I had not been purged of my NADECO blood, I fielded my assistant then, Ali, and he won against Adedibu?s candidate. So, he has not been winning elections and I don?t know why people call him strongman of Ibadan politics. So I don?t know the rationale behind calling someone the strongman of Ibadan politics.

Is it the amount of noise one can make that makes one to become the strongman of Ibadan politics? Or is it the level of thuggerry one can display that qualifies him for that? So, if politics is all about thuggery and violence, then count me out. I don?t want to be involved, but if politics is service, then count me in. I?m for that.
In the governorship race which you won in 2003, we were made to understand that Adedibu played a significant role and was instrumental to your being elected.
That is the mistake you are making. You see, Adedibu is a member of PDP and when he joined us we were not in the same camp. Go and ask him, he begged me to join our camp. When he decided to join my camp, we were in the same party, his people were talking to my people. And he came to my house three times before I even decided to meet him. And when he came to my house, all he did was to prostrate for me, saying ?sorry?, begging me to forgive him for all the things he had done.

You mean Adedibu prostrated for you?
Yes, he did. Go and ask him.
But he is older than you.
Yes. That is what you don?t know about Adedibu. He (Adedibu) has no shame. He just knows what he wants and he can do anything to get what he wants. So, when he prostrated and begged, I ran to carry him up. That is what the tenets of Yoruba taught me.

When I carried him up, he said "Rashidi, what is it that you want?" I said I wanted to be governor. He said he would like to work with me and that there are certain things that they do in politics which I won?t be able to do. He narrated those things. And when I wanted to run for an office, was it proper to tell somebody who wanted to work for me not to do so? I don?t think so. So, I said no problem.
At that time, one question that the electorate in Oyo state asked me was that: yes we know you, you are good, you will be fair, and you are capable, but will this man(Adedibu) allow you to work? I responded by saying that nobody would disturb me from performing, I am a father and a grandfather and I have made my life and name and that anything I do is because I want to do it.

The people that voted were not the people that came for campaign, no. We organized the possibility of meeting them; trade groups, professionals, personalities. He wasn?t there when we met those people. The only time he came along was when we organised political campaigns and rallies so that he could come and sing.
Maybe because he is generous, makes much money, that is why he is referred to as strongman of Ibadan politics. But, we, the traditional Ibadan people, know he is not as strong as you people thought.
The last PDP congress in Oyo shows that your supporters especially the lawmakers that supported you, lost out.

Was that election? A lot of our members were not registered and we protested. They said, okay, the party would not use the register, that we should go to the congress. But, when the congresses were going on, one of the so-called people in power now was going about Ibadan with people carrying cutlasses and dangerous weapons while the ?governor? was doing his own in Ogbomosho where people were attacked and wounded.

So, do you called that election? It was not a free and fair contest.

 

 This, no doubt, indicates that two factors come into play: that you may get legal victory and lose political relevance.
How?I mean assuming office.

Who will stop that?
Even as Adedibu has vowed that Supreme Court may give ruling but that you will not return to office.
He cannot stop the police and security agencies from enforcing the law. His rioters cannot stop them. The helmsman of Adedibu?s riot squad is one Akinsola(Tokyo).

Where is he today? So, when the police want to do their job, they do it. It was being speculated that Adedibu would not allow the Appeal Court to give their ruling in Ibadan, but where was he when the judgment was being delivered? The police do their job when they want to do it. So, I?m not afraid at all.
Everybody knows that Adedibu talks too much. He said the court would not hear the matter, it was heard. He said the court would not deliver judgment, the judgment was delivered. Adedibu is a very smart person.

Few days ago, Akala said he made peace moves towards you but you rebuffed him.
That is not true. Bayo (Akala) knows my number (he never at any point says I?m not his boss. Our position has been clear right from the beginning.) He knows where to get me.
Would you still find it convenient relating with him

I have no quarrel with him. Akala took the position because that was what the constitution says he should do. He was not the one that impeached me, so why do I have to quarrel with him. He is just a beneficiary of a constitution. The constitution says if the governor is impeached the deputy governor takes over. So, I have no quarrel with Bayo Akala. Why do I have to quarrel with him? The only thing I said was that if I have been in his position, knowing fully well that the court has declared that what was done was illegal, I would have called and ask, ?My governor, oga, when are you resuming?? Afterall, he did not get there by vote; he got there because the governor was impeached. So, if he calls me, I will talk to him. No problem.

In other words, he has not talked to you?
I have not got any call from him.
If the ruling goes your way, would you still be comfortable working with Akala?
Why not? You see, what people don?t understand is that it is not Ladoja and co limited. It is Oyo State government. There is no problem working with him, but the only thing as the governor is that the buck stops on my table. Everybody that is working for Oyo State government is under me. So, if you want to take a decision and I say no, that is not the way it should be, there is no problem with that. So, there is nobody I cannot work with. The rules are there.

Earlier on, you spoke of your involvement in politics and that you are politically relevant in Ibadan. With this, I?m confused because there was a time I watched Adedibu on television saying so many things, that you don?t have political structure and that you always sit by his side at his Molete, Ibadan home.

So, which is which?
You see, as far as Adedibu is concerned, his home is the party secretariat and anything that has to do with politics must start and end in his house. Did he know that I converted one of my houses in Ibadan to a political office where I was meeting with people, market women and all others? When we wanted to start campaign and Mapo Hall was to be used, the only assistance he came with was to come and break the doors.

He broke the doors during the time of Awolowo and it was another time for him to break the doors. So, that(breaking of doors) was the only assistance he rendered. In any case, people have been coming there to meet to such an extent that my calendar was in most places in Ibadan and the rest of Oyo State. People knew that we were coming. Mind you, there was no way we could be having meetings with important people and groups in Molete. The place is just for fun fair and if you want to do serious work, you do it elsewhere.
You said you had no problem with Akala, but you had with Adedibu.
No, I had no problem with Adedibu

Then, what was the crux of the matter?
The problem was that the legislators were making demands they were not entitled to. In every organization, there are segments and if you want to go beyond yours, and I?m in charge, I will tell you that is not possible.
But , Adedibu supported some of the legislators to move against you.
I won?t ask you not to go and support an unlawful protest. I see Adedibu jumping into an opportunity.

How about his(Adedibu) demands?
What did he say he want? He said he wanted the 25% of the N65million monthly security vote. I don?t know where he gets his figures, but what I know is that security vote fluctuates depending on the security situation. You know, when we came in, there was invasion of robbers in Oyo and then the security vote was higher because about 400 mobile policemen were brought into the state.

He just coined figures. Do you think it is right for someone to just say he wants this money for doing no work? What work does he do?
Maintaining security(political).
No, that is not his job. It is the job of the police and the State Security Services(SSS) to maintain security.

What about being a political contractor?
I don?t know. I don?t need any political contractor; I can talk to my people directly. Was he there during my debate with Lam Adesina? That was the turning point in my campaign.
In all honesty, was Adedibu not useful?
If he was useful, he was only useful at putting people at check at political rallies. That?s all. I told you earlier that the only question I had to answer from the electorate was: Will this man allow you to work? We are not talking of rigging election; we are talking of people really going out to vote.

Did he actually allow you to work?
He allowed me to work because I ignored him.

Did you really work?
Of course, I worked.

To what extent did you work?
Where are you living?
Lagos...

No wonder. If you live in Ibadan, you would not have asked that question. The roads were worse than what they used to be when we were leaving government. Within three months of my government, I fixed some of the roads, I got kudos from transporters, water that was not running for many years started running; education, health and other sectors were given attention. Salaries and allowances were being paid on time. We made efforts to eradicate guinea worm through Jimmy Carter Foundation.
But the incumbent administration has been able to do some other works like the renovation of Mapo Hall.

Sometimes, you do not do a job that will enable you to steal money, yes that is what I can say. You see, everybody?s property cannot be some people?s property. Mapo Hall belongs to Ibadan people and the problem with it was that there was no effective management in place to run it. What my government did was to involve prominent indigenes of Ibadan like Chief Bode Akindele in the management of the hall.

What we had in mind was to give a permanent solution to the problem there and I didn?t want to spend the public money which belongs to Oyo State on it just like what Mr. President did with the National Mosque and National Ecumenical Centre in Abuja. He(Obasanjo) didn?t spend government money on the projects, he raised money and that was what I intended to do.

Given all considerations, what are you future plans, politically?

I pray for long life, I will go up. This cannot be the zenith for me. It happens in somebody?s life. I?m not the first person that such thing(impeachment) would happen to.

Generally, have you gone to Ibadan to go and do survey?

People are waiting for me. They are praying for me to return because they have seen a difference in a good government and bad government.

Which one is good and bad?
Go and ask them. The people of Oyo State will tell you. Everybody is praying for me to come. "Please come, come to Oyo State," they keep saying.

 

Out of office, what are the lessons you have learnt?
There is no new lesson for me to learn. There is nothing that happened that we did not know could happen or that had not happened before. There was provision for impeachment in the constitution and we saw it coming. We tried as much as possible to avoid it, because we were playing the game according to the rules. The rule says two-thirds. So, as long as they get the constitutional requirement, there is no problem but they flouted the constitution flagrantly. We believe that our chief judge(Oyo) knew what he was doing, and that the people are educated enough to know the constitutional provision of getting two-third before impeachment can sail through.

We believe that the panel which was headed by a Senior Advocate of Nigeria would have known the constitutional provisions. We had too much trust in the system. It is so sad that people who are supposed to be upright decided to bend themselves. That is the only thing that is sad about the whole episode. There is no way you can practise democracy without people. It is a game of rule. It is just like playing a ball without players.

How would you assess the Nigerian judicial system since the case began?
The notion that the wheel of justice drags slowly or justice being delayed has been there before I was born. The judicial system in Nigeria should be reviewed. The wheel of justice dragging slowly should be reviewed. The era of judges writing with long hand should be discouraged when computers are available for most people.

Things are changing fast nowadays. In those days, before you can make international call, you had to go to a particular place but now with GSM in your hand, you can call anywhere in the world. Some people just deliberately slow the wheel of justice. It is not that they don?t know what they are doing is wrong, but they are doing it to ??So, there is need for us to look at the situation where cases like this are handled in a constitutional court with dispatch. It is not all cases that should be referred to the normal court. So, the decision of the Supreme Court is a total departure from the norm?.
Among the operators of the judicial system, we have the chief judge of the state.

He was not put there as a spectator, he heads the highest legal body in the state. And for a CJ to say that yes they wrote him a letter and he did not know who wrote the letter; that he didn?t know who the Speaker was and that he didn?t know whether they had met the two-third, when they had not met the 2/3, he should complain. He is supposed to uphold the constitution. This is very unfortunate. Since the Appeal Court has ruled, we hope that the Supreme Court will uphold the judgment. We put our faith in God and the Supreme Court justices.

A lot of things have been happening in the system. I believe, in my own case, a lot of lessons would have been learnt.
It is said that your problem was as a result of your cold relationship with President Obasanjo and being supportive of Vice President Atiku Abubakar?

That is not true. I know President Obasanjo very well before contemplating of coming back as a civilian president. Though I was not close to him like some people, I was a regular caller at Ota. In fact, when I went on exile, he(Obasanjo) said he would meet me at the airport on my way back to the country, but before I came back from Umrah at that time, he had been picked up for attempted coup. That was how close we were. So, it is not true that we were not friendly. But Mr. President has a problem. His problem is that he wants states to be independent. He doesn?t want to interfere with the running of the state.

For Mr. Vice President, I extended the normal courtesy his office demands. There is nothing more.
They said you were in the VP?s camp
That is not true. As at the time I left office, the relationship between the President and the VP was very cordial. Even the third term palaver did not come up until April and I was not in the office then to take sides. I left office in January. So, people are just trying to read meaning to situation.
In an interview you once said Alhaji Lamidi Adedibu was not an issue, but in another interview you said he(Adedibu) was your father.

How do you reconcile these statements?
The man is not an issue. I mean he was not disturbing me when in office. He could make a demand and if I felt such demand could be accommodated, of course I would accommodate it. And if they were demands that could not be accommodated, I won?t. And I said he was not disturbing me. What was I doing that he would disturb me. He was not asking us not to pay salaries or carrying out our functions. He can make noise. As far as I am concerned anybody can make noise, but the noise does not translate into action.

It is you(journalists) that encourage him to make noise.

How?
Because you are the one that call him strongman of Ibadan politics when we Ibadan people know he, Adedibu, is not strong politically. Although, he may have been in politics since politics started in Nigeria, his first encounter with my family was in 1954. He ran for councillorship election with my father and my father defeated him. I came into politics in 1992, I ran for Senate and I won. We (I and Adedibu) disagreed after the annulment of June 12, 1993 election because we got to know about the letter he wrote to IBB urging him to annul the election. I ran on the platform of Ibadan/ Ibarapa Senatorial District, at that time I won.

That was in 1994. When I came back from exile, I joined the UNCP, Baba was in DPN; we defeated him even in his local government. Again, when I wanted to contest for the Senate in Ibadan/Ibarapa, two days to the election, I was told that the power - that - be would not allow me to contest because they said I had not been purged of my NADECO blood, I fielded my assistant then, Ali, and he won against Adedibu?s candidate. So, he has not been winning elections and I don?t know why people call him strongman of Ibadan politics. So I don?t know the rationale behind calling someone the strongman of Ibadan politics.

Is it the amount of noise one can make that makes one to become the strongman of Ibadan politics? Or is it the level of thuggerry one can display that qualifies him for that? So, if politics is all about thuggery and violence, then count me out. I don?t want to be involved, but if politics is service, then count me in. I?m for that.
In the governorship race which you won in 2003, we were made to understand that Adedibu played a significant role and was instrumental to your being elected.
That is the mistake you are making. You see, Adedibu is a member of PDP and when he joined us we were not in the same camp. Go and ask him, he begged me to join our camp. When he decided to join my camp, we were in the same party, his people were talking to my people. And he came to my house three times before I even decided to meet him. And when he came to my house, all he did was to prostrate for me, saying ?sorry?, begging me to forgive him for all the things he had done.

You mean Adedibu prostrated for you?
Yes, he did. Go and ask him.
But he is older than you.
Yes. That is what you don?t know about Adedibu. He (Adedibu) has no shame. He just knows what he wants and he can do anything to get what he wants. So, when he prostrated and begged, I ran to carry him up. That is what the tenets of Yoruba taught me.

When I carried him up, he said "Rashidi, what is it that you want?" I said I wanted to be governor. He said he would like to work with me and that there are certain things that they do in politics which I won?t be able to do. He narrated those things. And when I wanted to run for an office, was it proper to tell somebody who wanted to work for me not to do so? I don?t think so. So, I said no problem.
At that time, one question that the electorate in Oyo state asked me was that: yes we know you, you are good, you will be fair, and you are capable, but will this man(Adedibu) allow you to work? I responded by saying that nobody would disturb me from performing, I am a father and a grandfather and I have made my life and name and that anything I do is because I want to do it.

The people that voted were not the people that came for campaign, no. We organized the possibility of meeting them; trade groups, professionals, personalities. He wasn?t there when we met those people. The only time he came along was when we organised political campaigns and rallies so that he could come and sing.
Maybe because he is generous, makes much money, that is why he is referred to as strongman of Ibadan politics. But, we, the traditional Ibadan people, know he is not as strong as you people thought.
The last PDP congress in Oyo shows that your supporters especially the lawmakers that supported you, lost out.

Was that election? A lot of our members were not registered and we protested. They said, okay, the party would not use the register, that we should go to the congress. But, when the congresses were going on, one of the so-called people in power now was going about Ibadan with people carrying cutlasses and dangerous weapons while the ?governor? was doing his own in Ogbomosho where people were attacked and wounded.

So, do you called that election? It was not a free and fair contest.




 

 

googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('comments'); });