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Why They Are After Me —Ribadu-TheNEWS magazine

January 8, 2008
On Thursday, 27 December 2007, TheNEWS crew of Babajide Kolade-Otitoju, Senior Editor; Ayorinde Oluokun, Abuja Bureau Chief; Tony Orilade, Staff Correspondent and Femi Ipaye, photo journalist, was at the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC headquarters in Abuja to interview the Executive Chairman of the commission, Mallam Nuhu Ribadu. Kolade-Otitoju had flown into Abuja that day for the assignment. At that time, the rumour was in the air that the EFCC helmsman had been nominated to proceed on study leave at the National Institute of Policy and Strategic Studies, NIPSS, Kuru near Jos. After about two hours wait, which was normal given Ribadu’s usually busy schedule, TheNEWS men were ushered into Ribadu’s expansive office by the commision’s head of Media Unit, Osita Nwajah. Though Ribadu was aware of the threat to his job by persons on the wrong end of his anti-corruption war, he looked unruffled and was evidently in high spirits. “Please join me in eating. Feel at home. This is the safest place you can be in Nigeria,” he urged. But the journalists were in no mood to eat. The interview was more important to them than the meal on offer. The journalists engaged Ribadu on sundry issues, including the vexed issue of the investigation of ex-President Olusegun Obasanjo for corruption, his recent brushes with the Attorney-General and Minister of Justice, Michael Aondoakaa, and his relationship with President Umaru Yar’Adua, suspected of harbouring some animosity for Ribadu and nudging the Justice minister to “whip Ribadu into line.” The question of his “rumoured” study leave in Kuru was billed to be the last for the tough but languid cop to answer, but he suddenly got up, saying he had to go and keep a very important appointment. TheNEWS, however, got his view on the matter later through an aide: Ribadu does not think he should go to Kuru at this time, and that if there is a need to go to Kuru he would be the one (as EFCC Chairman) to send an officer of the commission to the institute. His position is that he does not take instructions from the Inspector-General of Police, does not draw police salary, and does not even wear its uniform. In this interview Ribadu acknowledged that he has powerful foes that will stop at nothing to see his back, but that he is not perturbed because of his deep interest in justice. After putting about five years into the fight against corruption, how would you describe the journey so far? So far, so good. We have every reason to be grateful to God that something has been achieved. We have taken some bold steps that are very important and critical towards our journey to reinvent ourselves in the right direction. Honestly, it has been a success, because what we have achieved in Nigeria today, no other country can boast of it. We have really shown that the fight against corruption can be won. If you see the physical evidence of what we have done, you will see justification in what I am saying. It is something that all of us should be proud of. Fighting corruption is an extremely difficult task, but it is a task that must be accomplished. It is a panacea for good governance. It is what is needed for us to start growing and developing and solving the problems of our own people. Unless we establish law and order, rule of law and transparency and accountability in our polity, there is no way our government can perform. So, fighting corruption is the first step in accomplishing this dream. So far, I must say it has been very tough. It’s not that we are not bruised; it’s not that we are not bloodied, but it’s a task that must be done. Have you recorded casualties among your personnel? Oh! Severally. But I don’t think it is something we have to concentrate on because the moment we start talking about this, it sounds defeatist. It is something we must be ready to accommodate. It is not out of place that in the course of doing a very dangerous job like we, at EFCC are doing, we would suffer casualties. This work is not too different from being in a battlefield. A couple of personnel of EFCC have lost their lives, but the battle must be fought and won by us. We, however, have put measures in place to ensure that anybody who suffers any form of casualty is adequately compensated. We are always very careful and alert at all times. We are very careful about our security. Because we are professionals, we try as much as possible to handle cases in the most efficient manner. Can you estimate how much Nigerians have lost to corruption since independence and how much money the EFCC has recovered so far? When you are talking about corruption you can’t even quantify it, because corruption is responsible for the incompetence in governance. Corruption is not just about stealing public fund and stashing it away in foreign countries. It is more than that. Corruption breeds nepotism, it is the cause of all the insecurity, the lawlessness that resides in our society. Corruption is the reason why we even kill ourselves. Corruption breeds distortion, disagreement, disharmony within people. Corruption is the reason why we do not have institutions and structures on ground. Corruption is the reason why we, as Nigerians, are not enjoying the dividends of democracy. I will say corruption is responsible for military take-over of government. People take over government because it pays, it is a big reward. They see government as a place to go into, control public fund and do whatsoever they like with the fund. It is the reason why our roads are death traps, why our energy sector collapsed, why power is non-existent. Why our hospitals are worse than dispensaries and so on and so forth is all a result of corruption. When we talk about corruption, we talk about total failure; we talk about our inability to manage ourselves very well. Corruption is the reason why we are not measuring up to other countries of the world. I must tell you, most of the money we have earned in this country has gone into wastages. This country has earned so much money right from the time of our independence. Somebody should take time to calculate how much this country has earned since independence and also find out if we can see it on ground. Let me tell you a sad experience. The year before the last, I had to contribute money for my aunt (sister to my mother) to be taken to a hospital in Cameroun. Nigerians now go to Niger to seek medical attention. That is the extent to which we have reduced ourselves in this country. Before now, Nigerians used to go to Britain, America, and Germany for medical attention. Thereafter it was China, Dubai, and UAE. But now, we have so reduced ourselves that we go to Cameroun, Niger for medical attention. This is the sad story of this country, Nigeria. It is a fall-out of the mismanagement of our resources. That is the reason why some of us are very angry and for which others see us as taking it so personal. Given the daunting task of fighting corruption and some of the controversies that have cropped up in the recent past, have you ever felt that you are doing a thankless job and so you should just throw in the towel? I am okay. I am happy and pleased doing what I am doing, and I believe it is the right thing. I believe I am at peace with myself because I am doing what I enjoy most; fighting for justice, for fairness for the right thing. I have no regret doing this job. Would you say the job is a times frustrating? Let me tell you, from the very first day we signed on this job in EFCC, we have been fighting, but a different battle each day. Today, it is fraudsters, tomorrow it is pipeline vandals, the next day it is kidnappers, then yahoo boys, next day it’s politicians. Everyday it’s a battle. Yes, this is where I found myself, this is my life, I will not run away from it. It is not just me; all of us in EFCC. I know that because of the zeal we bring into this job and because they cannot bribe us, they would rather want to see us out. You don’t expect them to just fold their arms, because we make life difficult for them. These are powerful individuals. But we would continue to fight until the day God says that is the end of it. So long as we continue to fight this battle, we shall continue to be on the receiving end. The office of the Attorney-General of the Federation and the EFCC ought to collaborate in ensuring success in the battle against corruption. Today, that is not the case. What exactly is the problem between you and the Attorney-General? To me, personally, I have no problem with the Attorney-General of the Federation. I am doing my work; the work is on-going. Whatever is happening right now is not affecting the job. But there is no collaboration. It is not really that you depend on anyone to do this job. It is good if we work together, but now, there is really no impediment. The work is ongoing and is continuing. Let us stop at that. In Benue State recently, the Attorney-General of the Federation said that EFCC has been whipped into line, unlike in the past when once Nuhu Ribadu was in town politicians ran helter-skelter, since you didn’t follow due process. Is there any substance to this statement? We go by the law, we follow due process. If there is anything we are doing that is wrong, the court is there to correct us. So far, I cannot see any court in Nigeria that will come down heavily on us. Personally, I have not seen any letter from the Attorney-General accusing me of doing things against the rule of law. He has never been to my office up till now and so I have never communicated with him on anything we are doing that will require him to correct. But the Attorney-General said he has sent letters to EFCC and EFCC has refused to reply his letters. Whatever that requires answering will be answered. There are signals emanating from the office of the Attorney-General of plans to merge EFCC, ICPC and Code of Conduct Bureau. How do you feel? Government does have to initiate some policies at a point in time. If it is the policy of government, there is nothing we can do about it. But let me point out here that it goes beyond making a statement to effect a merger. There is need for legislative amendment to make such policy work. For such amendment, I believe the National Assembly will subject it to public hearing. At such hearing, I will also be able to go and express my views and position. Until then, I want to stop here. The Attorney-General would want to give the impression that he is encouraged by the President to do what he is doing. Do you really have the support and backing of President Umaru Yar’Adua in this anti-corruption crusade? I can tell you, and I am honest about it, President Umar Yar’Adua is a very good and honest person. Since he came on board, he has never interfered with my assignments. I can tell you authoritatively that he has never told me to do this or do that or not to do this or do that. So you are sure he is not the one urging the Attorney-General to act the way he is acting lately? Was it also the president that said he should defend people that we had cases against? Honestly, I don’t want to talk about the Attorney-General. I have refrained from talking about him. I have never, out of respect for his office. But for the President, honestly, he is such a wonderful person to work with. I have never had any problem with him. I am comfortable working with him. I can’t ask for a better president. When you talk with Mr. President, do you see sincerity in his eyes? Can you trust him or is he just playing politics with you? Mr. President is a very sincere person. He demonstrated this at the last EFCC-organized seminar. His speech was so powerful. I have seen honesty and sincerity of purpose in my relationship with him. This is a man who made my job easier when he assumed office. He is the first leader to publicly declare his assets. This is directly helping the work we are doing. I have high regard and respect for Mr. President, I have no problem relating with him and honestly, he is not interfering with my job. A representative of the Body of Benchers, Chief G.O.K. Ajayi, SAN, at the last swearing-in ceremony of the new Senior Advocates supported the position of the Attorney-General and also advised you to stop playing on sentiments by saying you are ready to die. What is your reaction to this rather hostile comment on your person? I have respect for G.O.K. Ajayi. He is a senior member of the bar. But you see, we have had one issue or the other with a lot of these people. We have met in courts where he stood in for the corrupt people we prosecuted and we defeated them. It is a verifiable fact that G.O.K. Ajayi stood in for fraudsters that we sent to jail in Nigeria. I do not expect to hear anything good from him about EFCC. It is not just him; we have several others like him. Nigerians do not know exactly what is going on. It is just that we cannot always come out to react to what they have to say. G.O.K. Ajayi is a man who consistently and persistently stood in for fraudsters whom we brought to justice, so we are not disappointed at his utterances against us. What efforts are you making to work with the Nigerian Bar Association, since that will make your work easier? Majority of the lawyers in Nigeria are with us. Most of them. They abhor corruption and they team up with us to fight the corruption scourge. Even the leadership of the NBA is in a working relationship with us now. There may be misunderstanding here and there but we are together. The Conference of Nigeria Political Parties, CNPP, has petitioned EFCC on the need to probe former President Olusegun Obasanjo. Given the fact that he set up the EFCC and is seen as your mentor, will you be able to investigate and prosecute him? We have investigated former President Obasanjo and we are still investigating him. It’s not only Obasanjo. We are investigating a lot of people. Even as President, a petition was sent to us and we investigated him. Since he left office, we have received several petitions against him. Honestly, we are doing very serious investigation on former President Obasanjo. Whatever that is sent to us as petition, we investigate and we shall take it to the next level. But let me point out here that it is unfortunate that the work we do here can easily be dragged into some form of blackmail. The people we have brought to justice feel that since they cannot bribe us, the easiest weapon they can use against us is that of blackmail. What they are saying now is, if you can’t do this, then you cannot do the others, then stop the work. That is the style we are seeing and sincerely, it is not fair to our country. What they are saying now is, don’t do this until you do that, whether there is something or nothing. That is wrong. We have done this investigation and we are still doing it. If there is anything that must be done to bring some people to justice we would not shy away from it. What you are saying is that beyond investigation, you are very much ready to prosecute former President Obasanjo at the right time. That is not even an issue to talk about. We would never shy away from doing our work. We have been doing our job and we would continue to do it. Let me tell you, even Iyabo [Obasanjo-Bello], as a Senator, we have invited her, taken her statement. That is the daughter of the former President. If anything comes out of it, we would take action. We must not go out of our way just to prove a point. No, that is not right, that is not justice that is not fairness. The work we do is all dependent on evidence and facts. The moment your investigation has merit, you must take it to the next level. If there is any evidence we have that we know will stand the test of prosecution, we would never shy away from it. Again, we cannot go out of our way to manufacture evidence simply because we want to prove a point. You are saying now that if a petition on former President Olusegun Obasanjo can be backed with evidence, you will not hesitate to do a through investigation and go to the next level. Absolutely, Let me also tell you one fact. Former President Olusegun played a very critical role in the fight against corruption in this country. Every now and then, there must be something to be said. Before, it was Obasanjo’s bidding we were doing; today it is Obasanjo we must prosecute. They are always shifting the goal post. Once they leave Obasanjo, they will shift to another person, you will see. Nigerians are particularly concerned considering the former President’s role in Transcorp, the Presidential Library funds and his investment in Bell University. We have done our investigation. Nigerians feel that if the EFCC would do a thorough investigation, there is definitely something to be found against the former President. I am telling you, we work hard. Whatever comes our way, we check. Obasanjo is one out of millions of people in Nigeria. Anytime we see why action must be taken, we would not hesitate. We do not have different measures for different people. That is not to say we must go out of our way to manufacture evidence. What is it about Transcorp or Library? We are investigating. Where we see that a criminal offence has been committed, we would not cover up anybody. We are not a court of ourselves. Whatever evidence we have, we take to the court of law. But where the issue concerned is of moral implication – maybe morally challenging – we can’t go to court. We can’t use a criminal process to address it. I am not saying this is the case in this matter. We as law enforcement agencies must be guided by what is right, proper. We must not bring selfishness into the work we are doing, we must uphold the rule of law. We must not manufacture evidence against anybody because the public expects it. You have foreign collaborators in this fight against corruption. We want to know if you have used your foreign collaborators in the investigation of former President Obasanjo? Yes, we have, several times What was the outcome? It’s part of our dossier on the former President. Let me tell you, the first name, the first individual that we gave to the [London] Metropolitan Police to check was former President Obasanjo, and they did. We had to do that for them to know that we are honest and that we are serious and that we shall spare no one. That is why they respect us. You have over 100 charges against former Governor Ibori. This will suggest you have cast-iron evidence against the former Delta State governor. When did the probe of Ibori actually begin? We started investigating Ibori a long time ago. That was even while he was still governor of Delta State. It was not just him. We started investigating a whole lot of them while they were still in office. We concluded our investigation on Ibori while he was out of office. That is why we have a water-tight case against him. We don’t just go to court; it is only when we see that we can prosecute our case in the law court that we proceed to the court after investigation. Considering the role Ibori played in the emergence of Umar Yar’Adua as President, many Nigerians thought that the prosecution of his likes would come towards the end of Yar’Adua’s first term in office. Why the rush in prosecuting him when there are many other cases lying there? Well, I don’t know if Ibori played any role in the emergence of President Yar’Adua. It is well known in political circles that he bankrolled the campaign of President Umaru Yar’Adua. I have not seen the least evidence to indicate that he is connected with Mr. President. I am not aware that he bankrolled the President’s campaign. Absolutely not to my knowledge. We work with evidence here. It is just speculation.

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