INTERVIEW: Soyinka On Biafran Genocide, Islamic Militants, And Other Issues-Telegraph

Posted: October 19, 2012 - 14:18

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caption: Prof. Wole Soyinka

By Peter Godwin

Wole Soyinka: 'If religion was taken away I'd be happy'
The Nobel prize-winner Wole Soyinka spoke this week at the Hay Festival in Mexico. In an extract from his talk, he tells Peter Godwin that now’s the time to tackle militants in Nigeria.

Wole Soyinka: We must stop pussyfooting around Islamic militants Photo: Daniel Mordzinski
By Peter Godwin
Peter Godwin Professor Soyinka, you’re not an ivory-tower kind of writer. You are not a stranger to danger, and in fact you’ve been imprisoned on at least two occasions, once in solitary confinement. Can you tell me what that was like?

Wole Soyinka: Writing in certain environments carries with it an occupational risk. When I was imprisoned, without trial, it was as a result of a position I took as a citizen. Of course I used my weapon, which was writing, to express my disapproval of the [Biafran] civil war into which we were about to enter. These were people who’d been abused, who’d undergone genocide, and who felt completely rejected by the rest of the community, and therefore decided to break away and form a nation of its own. Unfortunately, the nature of my imprisonment meant that I couldn’t practise my trade because I was in solitary confinement for 22 months out of the 27, and I was deprived of writing material. So I had to somehow break through the barriers, smuggle in toilet paper, cigarette paper, scribble a few poems, pass messages outside. I was able to undertake exercises to make sure that I emerged from prison intact mentally.

PG There have been high hopes for some African leaders after they were elected – Meles in Ethiopia, or Museveni in Uganda, or Kagame in Rwanda – but who then went to to show a more authoritarian bent. Are you an Afro-optimist or an Afro-pessimist?

WS I’m an Afro-realist. I take what comes, and I do my best to affect what is unacceptable in society. I’ve remarked how similar in many ways Mexico is to Nigeria, and to a number of places: we have the same condition of unstructured, unpredictable violence, both from the state and from what I call the quasi-state. Whether the quasi-state is formed, as its basis, of theocratic tendencies, or secular ideological rigidity, you always have forces, even outside the state, competing for the domination of people. That’s what’s happening on the African continent today. That’s what’s been happening in the Arab states and what led eventually to the Arab Spring. Gradually people come to the recognition after decades of supine submission that they are not whole as human beings.
PG Your parents were Christians, Anglicans, I understand. How has your own religious belief evolved?
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WS I consider myself very fortunate. I was raised in a Christian environment in Abeokuta, but another side of me was very much enmeshed in African values. I gravitated towards what I saw was a cohesive system of a certain relationship of human beings to environment, a respect for humanity in general. I came through a traditional system, where children not only had rights, but had responsibility. In the European world today, especially in America, it seems to be forbidden for children to have responsibilities…
I gravitated towards a deeper knowledge of the orisha, which represents the Yoruba pantheon, very similar in many ways to the Greek pantheon. You have reprobate deities, beneficent deities. I found that more honest than a kind of unicellular deity of either Christianity or Islam.
I don’t know if you’ve been following the news, but just a few days ago some of these Islamic fundamentalists butchered close to 50 students of a technical college. I cannot imagine the religion I was brought up in having such complete contempt for human lives. And yet these are supposed to be the world religions. So that’s why I consider myself rather fortunate that I’ve been able to see what other religions had to offer.
PG: How should Nigeria deal with the Boko Haram, the Islamic militants in the north of the country?
WS: All religions accept that there is something called criminality. And criminality cannot be excused by religious fervour. Let me repeat something I first said at the meeting organised by Unesco a few weeks ago, which was prompted by the recent film insulting the religion of Islam and depicting the Prophet Mohammed in a very crass way.

The first thing to say is that we do not welcome any attempt to ravage religious sensibilities. That can be taken for granted. But you cannot hold the world to ransom simply because some idiot chose to insult a religion in some far off place which most of the world has never even heard of. This for me is a kind of fundamentalist tyranny that should be totally unacceptable. So a group calls itself the Boko Haram, literally:

“Book is taboo”, the book is anathema, the book is a product of Western civilisation, therefore it must be rejected.

You go from the rejection of books to the rejection of institutions which utilise the book, and that means virtually all institutions. You attack universities, you kill professors, then you butcher students, you close down primary schools, you try and create a religious Maginot Line through which nothing should penetrate. That’s not religion; that’s lunacy. My Christian family lived just next door to Muslims. We celebrated Ramadan with Muslims; they celebrated Christmas with Christians. This is how I grew up. And now this virus is spreading all around the world, leading to the massacre of 50 students. This is not taking arms against the state, this is taking up arms against humanity.

PG: Is freedom of expression something you see as a universal right rather than as some Western construct?

WS: There are many cultures on the African continent where days are set aside, days of irreverence where you can say anything you want about an all-powerful monarch or chief. It’s a safety valve. It’s a recognition of freedom of expression, which perhaps has not been exercised, and bottled up grievances; this is the day when you express your grievances in society. So there is no society, really, which does not boast some form or measure of freedom of expression. Now, it’s true that freedom of expression carries with it an immense responsibility. Well that is why laws of libel exist – that when you carry things too far, you can be hauled up before the community, and judged to see whether you are right to call somebody a thief, or a hypocrite, and damage his reputation. But unless you establish that principle of freedom of expression, we might all just go around with a padlock on our lips.

Audience member: I read somewhere my freedom ends where your freedom begins. In Europe there have been cartoonists who have mocked the Prophet. Should they limit their freedom of speech?

WS Religion is also freedom of expression. People want to express themselves spiritually. And they also exercise the right to try and persuade others into their own system of belief. Those nations that say it’s a crime to preach your religion are making a terrible mistake. All they’re doing is driving underground other forms of spiritual intuitions and practices.

If religion was to be taken away from the world completely, including the one I grew up with, I’d be one of the happiest people in the world. My only fear is that maybe something more terrible would be invented to replace it, so we’d better just get along with what there is right now and keep it under control.
The unrest which is taking place as a result of Boko Haram, in my view, has attained critical mass. When a movement reaches that state of total contempt even for universal norms, it is sending a message to the rest of the world, and to the rest of that nation, that this is a war to the end. The president of Nigeria is making a mistake in not telling the nation that it should place itself on a war footing. There’s too much pussyfooting, there’s too much false intellectualisation of what is going on, such as this is the result of corruption, this is the result of poverty, this is the result of marginalisation. Yes, of course, all these negativities have to do with what is happening right now. But when the people themselves come out and say we will not even talk to the president unless he converts to Islam, they are already stating their terms of conflict.
*This is an edited transcript of Wole Soyinka’s event at Hay Xalapa.
Details: hayfestival.org

Comments

77 comment(s)

Civil war was for northern domination and looting

Submitted by tony (not verified) on November 11, 2012 - 10:52.

So called One Nigeria war was never really for one nigeria as history shows that the north never historically beleived in one nigeria. The rest of nigeria was fooled as the war was only for northern domination and looting of the oil resources. The result is with us today as nigeria is now the most corrupt, most dysfunctional, most unjust and most failed state on earth under the watch of northern post-war leaders!

Shine your eyes!

Igbo territorial ambition..

Submitted by Loveontop (not verified) on November 10, 2012 - 10:33.

It is sad that nigerian peoples believe that we, Igbo, want any part of nigeria. The truth is that the Igbo, we have enough of everything. It is the 'north' and their agents that are feeding everybody with this lie. All we want is our own nation, OUR BELOVED BIAFRA and our own people wherever we are in the entity called nigeria to be given back to us and to be left alone.
We do not need any people to be complete!If nigeria returns out people in the Rivers state, Cross rivers, Delta state, Kogi state, and Benue state... then you people can go to hell with your Nigeria.
We care less!The Ibo people will become a world power, that is the fear of our envious neighbours... the haters of the Igbo nation.

pg 172

Submitted by Dozye (not verified) on November 6, 2012 - 21:44.

page 172 is the truth and the only truth.

@ Anonymous

Submitted by Dchukwu (not verified) on November 4, 2012 - 11:04.

First you are a coward and thats why you couldnt put your name.Secondly you re ignorant that's why you said 'ibos' instead of 'Igbo'. Thirdly you don't know anything about wars so talk crap. For your info, igbo is not planning any breakaway despite all the killings you nd your northern brothers have been carrying out. Igbos are hoping and encouraging you and Arewa to attempt a breakaway and start a civil war. Then and only then would you understand that sword is sharper than teeth.

There is every reason to

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on November 1, 2012 - 17:52.

There is every reason to believe that Awo committed suicide. Awo had believed that he had the presidential seat reserved for him.On two occasions he contested the election and on those two occasions was denied the chances.He withdrew from practical life,became disillusioned and depressed.There was no known ailment that was reported he was suffering from.Woke up one morning, the sage was gone.Anybody that disputes this should prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

Nigeria: If we must break it!

Submitted by The Black Prince (not verified) on November 1, 2012 - 10:57.

If we must break Nigeria, it must be on terms that recognize boundaries of the old Empires, Oyo, Benin, Borno, Sokoto Caliphate, and Kingdoms of The Delta that were amalgamated in 1914 to create this Nigeria. BIAFRA?
1. The Yorubas can go their way to create Oduwa Republic
2. The Sokoto Caliphate can reclaim its territory.
3. The Benin Kingdom can rebounce
4. The Delta Kingdoms can come together to form a federating union
5. The Borno Empire can go alone, join the Caliphate or merge with Chad
6. The Middle Belt can join any group, or form a Union comprising Benue, Plateau, parts of KD, NS, KG, TR, NG, KW States.
7. The Igbos can forget their territorial ambition and form their Biafra comprising the States in the South East.

My advise to our Ibo bothers

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 31, 2012 - 20:11.

My advise to our Ibo bothers and sisters: Your revisionism do not scare us. Don't let a modern day Alfred Rosenborg goad you down the way of Nuremberg. We know you always detested our amiable and progressive ways. For this you think we are cowards. One day you will get down to carrying out your threat and you'll find that the "teeth is sharper than the sword"!

Did Awo commit suicide?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 29, 2012 - 10:01.

Or he could very well dispel the rumor that Awo did not commit suicide. Nigerians want to know how the sage died. Was he found found dead on hos bed? Was he murdered or drugged?

A complete darkness

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 28, 2012 - 18:45.

It seems like you are still an illiterate of divine existence?

There was and will always be a country called Biafra

Submitted by AU Citizen (not verified) on October 26, 2012 - 22:18.

People so upset at Achebe's depiction of Awo haven't mentioned Brigadier Adekunle, an unrepentant genocidal maniac who openly stated it was ok for kids to die and he couldn't care less if kids died. I'm actually reading the book. The saddest thing in it so far is on pg. 172 where Achebe quotes a British journalist who said that the defeat of Biafra would spell the end of Africans' dreams of development as Biafra was the only African country he'd seen where Africans were actually & fully in charge.
The curse on Nigeria would only be lifted when Biafra exists again.

You probably got it all

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 25, 2012 - 09:41.

You probably got it all wrong, my brother Pee. Prof Soyinka did not reduce an institutional crises to an individual like Prof Achebe did. That is the difference between the one who is speaking with open mind and the one who spoke with sentiment-filled mind.

The difference is that

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 25, 2012 - 09:39.

The difference is that Soyinka is a fictional-minded man while Awo was a practical man. The Igbo leaders of the Biafran era were unrealistic, unanalytic and myopic in a sucidal manner. Zik sold you to those who were killing you.

You speak of the humiliation,

Submitted by Yengben 1 (not verified) on October 24, 2012 - 15:41.

You speak of the humiliation, defilement and denial of the igbo tribe and the atonement for all the ill treatments. But don't forget that during the course of the civil war the Igbos also humiliated,dispossessed,defiled and killed some of the Hausa/Fulani, Yorubas,our brothers in the south south region and your own brothers in the fight to gain control. Let me ask you KPAKPANDO 1. Who's going to atone for their death? Of course you know.You and your Igbo brothers.

False Cry

Submitted by Yengben (not verified) on October 24, 2012 - 15:37.

THE MAN DIES WHO IS AFRAID TO SPEAK AGAINST POGROM

Submitted by KPAKPANDO 1 (not verified) on October 22, 2012 - 15:59.

THE MAN DIES WHO IS AFRAID TO SPEAK AGAINST TYRANNY. WOLE SOYINKA, LIKE THE IRISH PRIESTS AND THE FOREIGN FREELANCE JOURNALISTS WHO SAW FIRST HAND, THE METHODICAL ETHNIC-CLEANSING THAT WAS INFLICTED ON THE IGBO BY THE HAUSA/FULANI-YORUBA AND HANGERS-ON, FOR THE SAKE OF A COUNTRY THAT THEY ARE NOW IRONICALLY FIGHTING AGAINST; THROUGH ROGUISH AND DEVILISH METHODOLOGIES. EVERY WOMAN, EVERY CHILD OF THE IGBO FROM OGOJA TO IKWERE; AND FROM OBIARUKU TO NSUKKA; AND FROM AFIKPO TO UTAGBO UNO TO ONICHA OLONA THAT WAS LOST, DEFILED, DENIED, HUMILIATED AND DISPOSSESSED MUST BE ATONED FOR BY THE HAUSA-FULANI-YORUBA-HANGERS-ON, THAT ENGAGED IN THAT WAR OF ATTRITION FOR NIGERIA AGAINST BIAFRA.

Prof rightly made the call on

Submitted by pee (not verified) on October 22, 2012 - 11:03.

Prof rightly made the call on Genocide perpetrated on innocent Biafran children and women. I've not seen many comments of the Awo's cyber warriors who feel that all is fair in war. We want to hear from them.

Religion against humanity

Submitted by Vicenti O. Adegbola (not verified) on October 21, 2012 - 16:35.

Delighted to hear a Judge show such accuracy & incisiveness.
Hope & wish there are more like you.
Would make the judiciary: -
A good starting point for a better world.
Even 'Justice' as in 'Just'.

Wole Soyinka is a Yoruba with Conscience

Submitted by Emeka London (not verified) on October 21, 2012 - 01:55.

The Oracle has spoken, who can venture disput the facts?

@Wole Soyinka, come off your high horse(2)

Submitted by Elmango Meat (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 23:15.

Turkey is now mostly Islamic. They have since moved on to a monotheistic religion. Are you going backwards to a mythical situation? What I find difficult to appreciate is where the issue of "honesty" comes in. What is your yardstick in gauging a false or true belief system? Even in nature there is a Lead bird that breaks up the wall of air when birds are in migratory flight. Ants have a queen!

By your argument, the Obaship, Kingship, Prime Ministerialship and Presidential system that is prevalent in societies of the world is dishonest! What is dishonest about a monotheistic deity?

You have your choice of belief. Who gave you the right to judge what religious practice is dishonest. Mr. Wole Soyinka, please come off you high horse

@Wole Soyinka, come off your high horse (1)

Submitted by Elmango Meat (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 23:07.

"I gravitated towards a deeper knowledge of the orisha, which represents the Yoruba pantheon, very similar in many ways to the Greek pantheon...I found that more honest than a kind of unicellular deity of either Christianity or Islam."

As you know, 'Twelve Olympians' were the principal deities of the Greek pantheon, residing atop a mythical Mount Olympus. This concept is older than extant Greek or Roman sources, and likely Anatolian in origin which now comprises majority of the present day Turkey.

neutrality does not exist

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 22:28.

Gawu,
You speak like someone who went to school of some sort. It is sad to know from you that you support a group hate book to the extent of killing people for it. I would have wished you did not speak in english, speak in the "haram" language and then get someone to translate it for us. You are a blind muslim that is why you speak in the tone of a fundamentalist.
In your rush to condemn the Prof you failed to diggest his response to the question. When you settle down from rage, go back and re-read his response and you will be better informed.

ORGANISED RELIGION: OUR GREATEST OBSTACLE

Submitted by Justice Emeka Obi (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 15:46.

All Organised religions are devil's masterpiece, Christianity and Islam inclusive!
Such religions, especially Christianity and Islam, have cost humanity more death and misery than the 1st and 2nd World Wars put together.
Then, it was the Christian Crusaders, that unleashed all manner of abominable horror on humanity; and today we have the Muslim Jihadists, committing all manner of abominable terror, sending precious lives to untimely grave, all in the name of religion.

The living Legend

Submitted by foster Esq (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 12:47.

The living legend!I greet u. I won't comment on the book till I read it. I know that is why Our Own Noble laureate has not commented officially on it.But I believe prof must have been on the side of the truth as we have all come to appreciate he always chooses to be no matter what
.

END OF THE OLD NIGERIA BORN FROM MARRIAGE OF 1914

Submitted by Pastor Commander Samyoung Onwuzulike (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 08:13.

End of Old Nigeria born from the marriage of 1914 jesus Christ revealed in Gospel of Luke 20:27-38) The death of Seven brothers of the old Spirits of Seventh day faith of God that destroyed Jesricho and married Rahab the harlot of Jericho who helped them to destroyed Jericho. The Rahab of today are Cherubims of Black gold on seats on Mercy seat of the Ark of Men and their world. Cherubims were on top of Moses, Aaron, Elijah and Law of Holy of Holiess. The end of Old Nigeria of 1914 who died of Boko Haram, flood and fire with the woman of the South the 8th day Resurrection Holy Ghost. Their resurrection will ushered in New One World of Angels without marriage, man made doctrine to be governed with doctrine of One Love and Equal right.Cherubims is testimony of Women Virgina of Moses Red Sea that swallowed the army of Pharaoh.

WHERE ARE THE CYBER 'ARE ONA KAKANFOS'

Submitted by ENYI OHA (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 08:05.

PLEASE WHERE ARE THE FANI KAYODES, BABATOPES, ADEBANJOS,ETC WHO JOINED THE FRAY WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THE FIGHT WAS ALL ABOUT?IT IS NOT A FIGHT BETWEEN IGBOS AND YORUBAS AND IS EVEN BEYOND ACHEBE AND AWO. IT WAS AND STILL IS ABOUT JUSTICE AND INJUSTICE,POLITICS WITHOUT PRINCIPLE AND CONSCIENCE,MORALITY EVEN IN WAR AND LACK OF IT.IT IS ABOUT THE PLACE OF AWO AND GOWON AS HEROS FOR WINNING THE CIVIL WAR ON ONE HAND AND THE GENOCIDAL NATURE OF THE MEANS WITH WHICH THEY WON.IF THE MACHIAVELLIAN APPROACH WAS RIGHT THEN, LET THEM NOT COMPLAIN IF THE CHAIR TURNS NOW OR IN THE FUTURE. WE MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER DAN FODIO - CONSCIENCE IS AN OPEN WOUND, ONLY TRUTH CAN HEAL IT.

BIAFRA, MILITANTS, BOKO HARAM, FLOOD AND GENOCIDE

Submitted by Pastor Commander Samyoung Onwuzulike (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 07:59.

Whether is Biafra, Boko Haram, Militants, Flood and Genocide they were made for death of 1914 mariage of North and South. Jesus Christ speaks of the death of this marriage which was the marriage of the seven brothers to one woman. North called Songhai of seven Suns of Seventh Day Faith that destroyed Jericho. Rahab the harlot of Jericho who helped them is the Woman and South called the Cherubims of Black Gold who was sitting on mercy's seat above the Law, Moses, Aaron and Elijah who were inside the Ark of Covenant.The end of the marriage and death of Nigeria is the freedom of the Cherubims who were made to be the head over men in resurrection in New Angelic One World Government of Christ. Soyinka is an angel of New One World who is not married to any religion or doctrine of men. But waiting for coming of New One World of equal rights, Live and let live with end of all sacrifices and rituals.

SOYINKA STOP COVERING UP CULT MASSACRE IN MUBI

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 07:59.

I will never respect Wole Soyinka as long as i leave because of his irrationalty and superficiality in thinking, no doubt because he is enmeshed in paganism/cultism.The Mubi Masscres bore the signs of cultism, which the whole population knows.Is it right for the Nigerian security forces to massacre, burn and loot in maiduguri if Boko Haram kills an officer.Why should the people be subjected to both the terror of the terrorists and the army.Thus the North East is ravaged by Boko haram,Pagan cultists and Security forces. The IG was immediately summoned for the portharcourt 4 killings but Jonathan did not even comment on the killings in Mubi and Maiduguri. The other day Igbos were reminding us that Awo planned their genocides. Here we are today JONATHAN & IHEJERIKA igbo like and igbo committing the same thing Awo was accused yet their people are hailing them!

Wole already said pogrom was genocide, 2 million deaths = doub

Submitted by Emeka (not verified) on October 20, 2012 - 01:24.

Even before the civil war began, Wole Soyinka had already tagged the pogrom deaths of about 50,000 people of Easteners a genocide. Soyinka would therefore have tagged the 2 million deaths of Biafrans from starvation arising from food blockade a tremendous genocide. That's simple to comprehend. Obafemi Awolowo long ago accepted that he propounded the principles of Biafra borders' blockade to stop the inflow of food and relief materials into Biafra. So Awo, to the greatest degree, was responsible for the dearths of about 2 million of the future generation as charged by Chinua Achebe.

I think the professor and

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 19, 2012 - 22:31.

I think the professor and those that didn't see anything wrong with his mislead writings are mentally sick and blind,they can't see anything because they are the children of satan who know no peace in their lives and I pray to God to destroy you so that we can have peace.

Intergrity Over Tribal Emotion!

Submitted by Justice (not verified) on October 19, 2012 - 22:22.

@Abip, you are point blank that 'The Nigerian people are not thinking right b/c they are enslaved by religion'; but besides religion, is the mother of all slavery - TRIBALISM! Tell me, how many Femi-Fani-Kayode's , Ayo Adebanjo's, Opadokun's, Dick, Tom and Harry of Yoruba extraction have attacked or repudiated Professor Soyinka for his honest and public position on the Biafran adventure. Plain hypocrites and attention seekers we have in this country called Nigeria. Professor Soyinka knows better and has placed integrity above trivial tribal sentiments. Does it mean every Yoruba is a tribal apologist – NO; does it mean there is no tribalism in other regions of the country – NO. In ranking, Tribalism is the single most important reason we cannot fight corruption; the reason political and religious manipulators are having field days over even sane minds.