Michael Mbabuike: Prof, in the third stage engagement, the winners are, supposedly, in the right. In other words, people do everything in their power not to become the loser, because ultimately the winner is right. You have subscribed to that theory before in your writings.
That the winner is right?
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Michael Mbabuike: Yes.
No, absolutely not; not at all? The winner seizes power, yes; but it doesn?t mean that the winner is necessarily right! I don?t subscribe to that, at all. If I may just say this; this warning is being demonstrated in what is happening in the Delta region, the oil region. And the intransigence has been partly fuelled by the demonstration of the present regime to stay in power through might and through fraud. And so the militants in that area are saying: alright, we?ll have to speak the language of force. They don?t want the continuation of the present regime, because it will only carry on the policies of the past. The Delta region has seen, over the last few years, that their lot has never improved, has not become better, at all. And so why should they now subscribe to this self-perpetuation that guarantees their continuing impoverishment?
Okey Ndibe: We have seen that most Nigerians are opposed to any plot to elongate the term of the president. However, a substantial number are worried about who comes next. Some think it might be Babangida, a terrible, terrible, prospect, indeed. Some think it might be Atiku or Marwa; neither of them, an attractive choice. What kind of Nigeria are we to have so that we don?t continue this rigmarole of frustration and hopelessness?
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Well, I?m very glad that you stressed the fact of what, and not who comes next. Each time we want to get rid of a nasty at the top, people always say, yes; but who do you have to replace him? That question I never take at all, because we know that there are an abundance of people. Even the party I inaugurated -- when we started working on this party about two years ago?was actually inaugurated in Benin more than two years ago. I said at the second meeting: you should all start looking for people we can back for high offices in this nation. We should be able to say -- look, this is the kind of person we want; wherever he is, this is the person we?re going to back. So what comes next? The vision which we have -- most of us in PRONACO -- is a completely decentralized nation in which the various constituents are free to develop at their own pace, choose their own priorities, and decide their own future. If they want to concentrate first on health as a priority, they should be able to do so within the guaranteed resources that they have. Remove as much power from the center as possible, leaving the center just for common defense and so on and so forth.
We have attached to the constitution now what is, in effect, a people?s charter; the minimum that every citizen has a right to expect from the state, from the collectivity. And this we want to be part of the constitution, so that individuals and groups can actually push for these rights on the strength of the documents, the protocols that we plan to hold the nation together. I am not so romantic as to think that overnight, we are going to have a transformed society in which suddenly, services are available for the disabled. But this is the goal, and anyone who is not working towards the attainment of these goals, the people have a right to remove from office.
Omoyele Sowore: There is another question regarding the political party issue--why can?t the activists have one single political movement in which there is a Wole Soyinka, Femi Falana, Gani Fawehinmi, and all the ?big names? in the movement? There does not seem to be unity in the movement. How would you respond to that?
Well, at one time, we were driven apart by ideological rigidities; but I think a lot of that is in the past now. I don?t know if you listened to Gani?s statement when Beko died? He said: ?I don?t care about the past; all I know is that we must all come together.? It is a critical moment for all of us. I have sent word to him to say -- Gani, stand by; we have work to do! We are reaching out in many directions. I think we?re going to see a change between now and the next elections.
Recent reports in Nigerian Newspapers suggest that you may be interested in running for the presidency. What role can Nigerians play to make this a reality?
Nigerians will have to learn that working with others to create a new, progressive, platform as an alternative to existing choices is not the same as nursing political ambition.
In other parts of Africa, say Zimbabwe the leaders have been able to hang on to power, despite opposition. Despite the recent vote in the national assembly, is the concern over? In other words ?Are you confident that Nigerians will be able to stop Obasanjo?s third term plan.?
I am confident, I am pretty confident! He may hope to turn himself into another Mugabe; however, Nigeria is not Zimbabwe. I have said to people, ?back to the trenches.? The signs are there, the signs are there; but we must not let him get the ?Mugabe complex.?
Sir; how do you respond to the phenomenon of "godfatherism" in Nigerian politics?
The greatest disservice President Obasanjo has done to the nation is to have promoted the cult of godfatherism, its illegalities, its naked violence, and its corruption.
Okey Ndibe: Your new book, You Must Set Forth At Dawn has just come out. You are not only a writer, but an activist, an agent provocateur?something of a conscience of the nation. How do you reconcile such diverse demands?
I don?t know about being the conscience of the nation. I?m satisfied with being my own conscience, and perhaps that?s what drives me. I have never really separated the two functions, which means that I have never given myself the burden of trying to reconcile incompatibles. We are all, before anything else, citizens. We belong to an environment and have a sense of community. Being part of a community means enjoying the security of being part of a family, but at the same time, accepting responsibilities towards that family. I mean, a nation is an extended family. So I have never seen my function as being different from the functions of any other citizen, except, of course, that my profession happens to be that of the word. And so I use that tool in the interest of my responsibilities. There?s no contradiction, whatsoever.
Okay, from time to time I resent it very strongly. Let?s say I?m in the midst of, or planning a particular creative project. I?ve become internally committed to it, and something external impinges?like, what you?ve just mentioned; the politics of one?s existence?and of such urgency, that I have to abandon my project. And then there come strong resentment: Oh my God, not again, not again. When will I be able to plan my life according to my immediate moods, and so on? But it?s only in terms of those periods that there is resentment.
Okey Ndibe: You?ve just published a political memoir that spans your many years of active engagement in the political life of Nigeria. Yet, when you wrote Ake: The Years of Childhood, you suggested that you would never venture into the adult sectors of your life in a memoir. You subsequently breached that pledge when you wrote Ibadan: The Penkelemesi Years, a book you justified on the ground that it was a way of engaging with the immediate political provocation at that time. Could you speak to the importance of this latest memoir, in terms of any political impulse that informed it?
Laughs?I first and foremost apologize to everyone for being foolish enough to say that I would not write my biography beyond the age of eleven. It was very presumptuous of me, because I underestimated the amount of provocation I would receive later in life. But ideally, ideally, I think one really should not go beyond the age of innocence in writing one?s autobiography. And the age of innocence ends at about eleven. After that, you?re no longer spontaneous. A child is a spontaneous being; that is why that period in one?s life is the most truthful. At a later age, you begin to hedge a little bit, create gaps-- deliberate ones, which could even be accounted as lies--on account of other people, or simply because you think the actions involved in that period are not yet over. So whilst you don?t set out to be dishonest in writing a book about adult life, you cannot be totally truthful?because you?re hiding something; you have to. I wrote Ibadan?it is very difficult for me to say this?but I wrote Ibadan, because I was about to engage in a course of action, and I wasn?t sure what the end result would be. I could end up in jail?I was returning to Nigeria; I had been in exile, a forced exile?this was during the period for the actualization of June 12. And I was asked to go and testify before the Congressional hearing in Washington about the elections. After testifying I returned to London, and then M.K.O. Abiola, who was also in London at the time, decided that he couldn?t go back home. We met and he pleaded with me to please stay a while longer to take care of the international aspect of things. And I was feeling very, very frustrated. I knew that we had to go and fight this particular battle to an end.
Last View on Fri 9th January, 2009
Last Modified on Sun 28th May, 2006 11:03:25 pm
Professor Akinwande Oluwole Soyinka in conversation with Omoyele Sowore, Michael Mbabuike, and Okey Ndibe
He is Nigeria?s Nobel Laureate; a world acclaimed writer, and celebrated crusader for social justice and human rights. Professor Akinwande Oluwole Soyinka requires no other introduction.
Professor Michael Mbabuike. Nigerian Linguist and Poet, Michael Mbabuike is Professor and Chair of the Humanities Department/Africana Studies, Hostos Community college of the City University of New York. After obtaining a B.A [Honors] from the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, he proceeded to the University of Sorbonne, Paris, France, for an M.A. and D.Litt. He has published several academic articles and books including the much admired Poems of Memory Trips [Poetry, Sungai, 1998]
Professor Okey Ndibe is an associate Professor of Literature at Simon?s Rock of Bard College in Great Barrington, MA, USA. He was born in Yola, Nigeria, in 1960. After a distinguished career as a magazine editor in Nigeria, he moved to the US in 1988 to become the founding editor of African Commentary, an award-winning and widely acclaimed magazine, published by the Nigerian novelist, Chinua Achebe. He has been a visiting writer-in-residence, and assistant professor of English at Connecticut College, and has contributed poems to An Anthology of New West African Poets, edited by the Gambian poet, Tijan Sallah. He has also published essays in a number of North American, British and Nigerian magazines, and writes a weekly column for the Guardian; one of Nigeria's most respected daily newspapers. Professor Ndibe is the author of the critically acclaimed novel, Arrows of Rain.
Omoyele Sowore is a former student leader who survived torture under the Abacha regime, Omoyele Sowore is a pro democracy activist, and is widely considered his generation?s most respected and outspoken investigative journalist.
THE INTERVIEW
Sir, in a historic vote, the National Assembly recently rejected a move to amend the constitution and extend the tenure of the President and State governors. What is your reaction to this development?
I believe it serves as an impetus for PRONACO to accelerate the tempo of presenting a people's constitution to the nation, and a lesson to all sit-tight aspirants on the African continent!
Okey Ndibe: Nigerian leaders seem to have an obsession with self-perpetuation. This was the case with Gowon, Babangida, Abacha?and now, Obasanjo. What do you think accounts for this fascination, and what strategies must Nigerians adopt to combat it?
This situation, of course, is not peculiar to Nigerians; but I suppose we are very much bothered by it, because we are a nation of 120 million people, at the minimum. I think it is quite right and proper that 120 million people, of whom close to half are adults, must feel insulted by the notion that one, single, person?each time, it?s the one person?who feels entitled, or believes that only he has the ability, the intelligence, the political savvy, to rule a people as large and diverse as we are. I travel everywhere, and I can say this: There is no where in the world I go to that I don?t stumble across a Nigerian. And that Nigerian is in a very highly regarded position; whether it?s in the sciences, the arts, sociology, or in technology. Nigerians are everywhere.
Part of the frustration of Nigerians, in addition to the lack of fulfillment in every facet, is a deep-seated sense of hurt about the quality of leadership in Nigeria. The average Nigerian thinks -- how do you expect me to stay in a place where someone like this is not only in charge of the nation, but actually thinks that he alone is entitled to rule the country? And so, it?s a really serious issue; it has consequences beyond the immediate issue of power. And how do we combat the situation? Well, I think we have to decide that it is time to take a stand. It is time to take a stand. I know we decided this in the past; during Babangida?s time, yes. We decided it during Shagari?s time, and we also decided to take a stand during the Abacha regime. But I think that we really, really, really have to decide that enough is enough, and that this situation has got to stop. Even if it means moving into a high gear of resistance, I think we have to solve this really serious problem, once and for all.
Michael Mbabuike: Are you advising us to be like Ogun--the great creator and destroyer? I mean, the winner is always right, as the saying goes; but how are the people of Nigeria to act in a situation where the end often justifies the means?
It is a multi pronged approach, I agree, and we are already operating now. We are challenging, not only the present system, but the past. I?m talking about the work of the on-going National Conference. Many people who thought the process through will understand why the present regime was so desperate to stop that conference. Because it goes beyond merely providing the constitution, offering an alternative constitution to the people; the methodology dictates that it is time to restore sovereignty to the people.
This is why Obasanjo and his government were so scared of the conference. They threatened at the beginning that we would be charged with treason; the police breathed fire, and said they would disrupt the gathering. We said no: sovereignty lies with the people, and the people have not yet enjoyed that sovereignty; they have not been allowed to express their sovereign will for so many decades. And as long as we are operating a constitution bequeathed by the military?even if it is the most perfect constitution in the world?the people must still have a voice and say, we?ve examined this constitution, and endorse it, in toto. But the people must have a chance to debate, before making it their choice.
And now Obasanjo takes that constitution, quickly summons his own confab for political tinkering and gerrymandering, and sends Mr. Mantu round to present it. Now Nigerians are seeing the hollowness, the ludicrousness of this exercise, and they are comparing it to what is going on right now at Shangisha, in Lagos. And more and more people are coming on board, because they now understand what is really going on. Groups, bodies, geographical areas, that before had been apathetic?labor, South-South, various civil organizations and ethnic groups?are coming in. And it is a statement being made. That?s number one. The second stage is that the people in Nigeria must get ready; be prepared to march to the various state houses of assembly if they attempt to tamper with this constitution in order to establish and perpetuate the reign of terror. We leave what the third stage might be?let?s concentrate on those two; the preparation to march to the houses of assembly if they attempt to cheat the people of Nigeria, once again.
Omoyele Sowore: I am more interested in the third stage, because I have experienced the last two stages you mentioned. Many in my generation are tired and frustrated with the idea of speaking to the press, marching in protest only to get shot at and killed. I want to ask directly about the 3rd stage engagement. At what point do you think people should start considering a higher level of resistance, for example, armed struggle; considering that all these characters you described are not only brutal, but wicked, and have no regard for life and the rights of Nigerians to organize peacefully?
I have been issuing very loud warnings to the police, telling them not to allow themselves to be used. Nigerians have experienced far too much brutality at the hands of the military and the police, as well as the secret services?especially under Abacha. I think the stage of a critical mass is very close to us. And if, under what is supposed to be a democratic dispensation, the police turn out to be instruments for the furtherance of state terror, that third stage may be reached sooner than many people imagine. It is not I who will advocate it; I can only warn that I see the signs. And I can see signs of what you just said. I know I understand this, and people are saying it. There is a level of frustration. It is because we don?t want things to reach that stage that we keep shouting these warnings: the military and police -- do not allow yourselves to be used in instituting terror, because if the third stage is reached, you will have to answer for your crimes against the people. One is fervently hoping that that ultimate stage will not be reached. But all I can do is scream warnings, and also engage in the mobilization of people for popular protests.
Michael Mbabuike: Prof, in the third stage engagement, the winners are, supposedly, in the right. In other words, people do everything in their power not to become the loser, because ultimately the winner is right. You have subscribed to that theory before in your writings.
That the winner is right?
Michael Mbabuike: Yes.
No, absolutely not; not at all? The winner seizes power, yes; but it doesn?t mean that the winner is necessarily right! I don?t subscribe to that, at all. If I may just say this; this warning is being demonstrated in what is happening in the Delta region, the oil region. And the intransigence has been partly fuelled by the demonstration of the present regime to stay in power through might and through fraud. And so the militants in that area are saying: alright, we?ll have to speak the language of force. They don?t want the continuation of the present regime, because it will only carry on the policies of the past. The Delta region has seen, over the last few years, that their lot has never improved, has not become better, at all. And so why should they now subscribe to this self-perpetuation that guarantees their continuing impoverishment?
Okey Ndibe: We have seen that most Nigerians are opposed to any plot to elongate the term of the president. However, a substantial number are worried about who comes next. Some think it might be Babangida, a terrible, terrible, prospect, indeed. Some think it might be Atiku or Marwa; neither of them, an attractive choice. What kind of Nigeria are we to have so that we don?t continue this rigmarole of frustration and hopelessness?
Well, I?m very glad that you stressed the fact of what, and not who comes next. Each time we want to get rid of a nasty at the top, people always say, yes; but who do you have to replace him? That question I never take at all, because we know that there are an abundance of people. Even the party I inaugurated -- when we started working on this party about two years ago?was actually inaugurated in Benin more than two years ago. I said at the second meeting: you should all start looking for people we can back for high offices in this nation. We should be able to say -- look, this is the kind of person we want; wherever he is, this is the person we?re going to back. So what comes next? The vision which we have -- most of us in PRONACO -- is a completely decentralized nation in which the various constituents are free to develop at their own pace, choose their own priorities, and decide their own future. If they want to concentrate first on health as a priority, they should be able to do so within the guaranteed resources that they have. Remove as much power from the center as possible, leaving the center just for common defense and so on and so forth.
We have attached to the constitution now what is, in effect, a people?s charter; the minimum that every citizen has a right to expect from the state, from the collectivity. And this we want to be part of the constitution, so that individuals and groups can actually push for these rights on the strength of the documents, the protocols that we plan to hold the nation together. I am not so romantic as to think that overnight, we are going to have a transformed society in which suddenly, services are available for the disabled. But this is the goal, and anyone who is not working towards the attainment of these goals, the people have a right to remove from office.
Omoyele Sowore: There is another question regarding the political party issue--why can?t the activists have one single political movement in which there is a Wole Soyinka, Femi Falana, Gani Fawehinmi, and all the ?big names? in the movement? There does not seem to be unity in the movement. How would you respond to that?
Well, at one time, we were driven apart by ideological rigidities; but I think a lot of that is in the past now. I don?t know if you listened to Gani?s statement when Beko died? He said: ?I don?t care about the past; all I know is that we must all come together.? It is a critical moment for all of us. I have sent word to him to say -- Gani, stand by; we have work to do! We are reaching out in many directions. I think we?re going to see a change between now and the next elections.
Recent reports in Nigerian Newspapers suggest that you may be interested in running for the presidency. What role can Nigerians play to make this a reality?
Nigerians will have to learn that working with others to create a new, progressive, platform as an alternative to existing choices is not the same as nursing political ambition.
In other parts of Africa, say Zimbabwe the leaders have been able to hang on to power, despite opposition. Despite the recent vote in the national assembly, is the concern over? In other words ?Are you confident that Nigerians will be able to stop Obasanjo?s third term plan.?
I am confident, I am pretty confident! He may hope to turn himself into another Mugabe; however, Nigeria is not Zimbabwe. I have said to people, ?back to the trenches.? The signs are there, the signs are there; but we must not let him get the ?Mugabe complex.?
Sir; how do you respond to the phenomenon of "godfatherism" in Nigerian politics?
The greatest disservice President Obasanjo has done to the nation is to have promoted the cult of godfatherism, its illegalities, its naked violence, and its corruption.
Okey Ndibe: Your new book, You Must Set Forth At Dawn has just come out. You are not only a writer, but an activist, an agent provocateur?something of a conscience of the nation. How do you reconcile such diverse demands?
I don?t know about being the conscience of the nation. I?m satisfied with being my own conscience, and perhaps that?s what drives me. I have never really separated the two functions, which means that I have never given myself the burden of trying to reconcile incompatibles. We are all, before anything else, citizens. We belong to an environment and have a sense of community. Being part of a community means enjoying the security of being part of a family, but at the same time, accepting responsibilities towards that family. I mean, a nation is an extended family. So I have never seen my function as being different from the functions of any other citizen, except, of course, that my profession happens to be that of the word. And so I use that tool in the interest of my responsibilities. There?s no contradiction, whatsoever.
Okay, from time to time I resent it very strongly. Let?s say I?m in the midst of, or planning a particular creative project. I?ve become internally committed to it, and something external impinges?like, what you?ve just mentioned; the politics of one?s existence?and of such urgency, that I have to abandon my project. And then there come strong resentment: Oh my God, not again, not again. When will I be able to plan my life according to my immediate moods, and so on? But it?s only in terms of those periods that there is resentment.
Okey Ndibe: You?ve just published a political memoir that spans your many years of active engagement in the political life of Nigeria. Yet, when you wrote Ake: The Years of Childhood, you suggested that you would never venture into the adult sectors of your life in a memoir. You subsequently breached that pledge when you wrote Ibadan: The Penkelemesi Years, a book you justified on the ground that it was a way of engaging with the immediate political provocation at that time. Could you speak to the importance of this latest memoir, in terms of any political impulse that informed it?
Laughs?I first and foremost apologize to everyone for being foolish enough to say that I would not write my biography beyond the age of eleven. It was very presumptuous of me, because I underestimated the amount of provocation I would receive later in life. But ideally, ideally, I think one really should not go beyond the age of innocence in writing one?s autobiography. And the age of innocence ends at about eleven. After that, you?re no longer spontaneous. A child is a spontaneous being; that is why that period in one?s life is the most truthful. At a later age, you begin to hedge a little bit, create gaps-- deliberate ones, which could even be accounted as lies--on account of other people, or simply because you think the actions involved in that period are not yet over. So whilst you don?t set out to be dishonest in writing a book about adult life, you cannot be totally truthful?because you?re hiding something; you have to. I wrote Ibadan?it is very difficult for me to say this?but I wrote Ibadan, because I was about to engage in a course of action, and I wasn?t sure what the end result would be. I could end up in jail?I was returning to Nigeria; I had been in exile, a forced exile?this was during the period for the actualization of June 12. And I was asked to go and testify before the Congressional hearing in Washington about the elections. After testifying I returned to London, and then M.K.O. Abiola, who was also in London at the time, decided that he couldn?t go back home. We met and he pleaded with me to please stay a while longer to take care of the international aspect of things. And I was feeling very, very frustrated. I knew that we had to go and fight this particular battle to an end.
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