Excerpts:Since your appointment as the Chairman of the Economic and Financial
Crimes Commission (EFCC), would you say you have achieved much?
Well, I think we have done fairly well. Today, EFCC is just about three
years and the work we have done here in EFCC is very clear, very
evident that something has been achieved. As of today, we have had about 70
convictions in a country that never had one before the coming of EFCC.
Today, the issue of corruption is at the centre of everything we are
talking about in the country. Fighting corruption and the establishment of
good governance became the foundation, the bedrock of reforms, policies
and programmes of government. If you look into all these things, you
will say that the work we have done so far is satisfactory. Again, the
image problem we have suffered in the time past is being improved upon.
The reform programmes of this government vis-à-vis the activities of the
EFCC is a reflection that things have changed. We now have good rating
before the international community and the international finance
institutions. EFCC is one of the key agencies in Nigeria that the World Bank
always refers to in everything they are doing that concerns Nigeria in
particular and developing countries in general. I have had the
opportunity of addressing officials of the World Bank more than six or seven
times. I have been sent by them to lecture other countries on how things
are done; the same thing with the IMF.
There are so many accolades out there, but in the last three months,
there has been this perception that EFCC is actually an attack dog for
Mr. President, especially as it relates to third term. You were seen to
be attacking only the anti-third term elements, or people who were not
in the good books of the President.
Let me explain the background of where we are coming from and how
things were in this country. We are coming from a very poor system, a
failure of government, where there has been lack of trust and confidence by
the citizenry in the government and leadership. Therefore, whatever you
do is viewed with skepticism, with suspicion and so on. It is
understandable to a large extent.
We were coming from a background of deceit; at one point we called
ourselves Maradona and all sorts of names were ascribed to leadership in
this country. People have been psychologically brutalised and therefore
their plight at the moment is understandable i.e., plight of being
suspicious and seeing every action of the government with skepticism. Two,
fighting corruption is the most difficult thing to do, because it
amounts to fighting corrupt individuals who are movers and shakers of the
society. Let me tell you, even in the media industry, if I tell you the
source of money moved to establish some of these media houses, you will
be shocked. And these are opinion moulders. They are threatened with
some of the things going on now, and they will not just leave you and
allow you to go after them. They will do whatever it takes to go after
you and destroy you. Also, we are coming from a background of the total
collapse of the justice system, total collapse of law and order, where
with money you can compromise whatever. We in EFCC stood our ground
that we don’t want your money, we cannot be compromised. We said whoever
you are, nobody is above the law, and we meant it, and we have gone
after powerful people and those people have realised that indeed, EFCC
cannot be compromised. No matter the money you have, we are not
interested in it. Rather, we would bring you to justice. So, whatever you do,
somebody will give his/her own interpretation in Nigeria. When we
started going after 419, they said we were attacking one particular section
of the country. When we were attacking corrupt bank officials, I was
tagged the worst enemy of the North. Up till now, they still write all
sorts of things about me. Now that we are going after corrupt
politicians, they must cook up a story to justify their perceived persecution. Let
me tell you, these guys we go after are extremely powerful. They cannot
just sit down and allow you to come and do what you like with them,
they won’t. There are people today who are in prison after taking well
over $200million to $300 million dollars from them. There are other
people also in prison after forfeiting billions of naira. You think such
people will just sit down there and lick their wounds? No, they will
surely fight back. The only thing they can do now is to try to give us
image problem. Let me also tell you that we have taken [up] so many
people close to government. In fact, up till now, we have not taken
anybody from the opposition.
But there is a reference point as to the selectiveness of your
operation. There was an investigation you carried out on NPA. You submitted
your report which was very indicting of the government, yet the culprit
is gallivanting all over the country. People just believe that it is
because he belongs to the ruling party that you have not been able to do
something about his case. There is also the case of Societe Generale
Bank owned by Dr. Olusola Saraki.
I don’t think the Saraki case fits into this argument because I never
knew him to be a friend of Obasanjo. In fact, I know that he is even in
opposition to President Obasanjo. In the case of Bode George, let me
tell you the history of the investigation. The Minister of Transport
took a memo to the Federal Executive Council (FEC) to get approval for
outstanding liabilities of NPA. These amounted to about N19 billion. The
FEC deliberated on that memo and indeed questioned the bills which
looked very suspicious. The FEC directed the formation of an administrative
panel of investigation.The panel, which was chaired by EFCC, comprised
the Secretary to the Government of the Federation, Ministry of Finance,
office of the Head of Service and the Due Process Office. We were given
six months to investigate and look at what happened in respect of the
contracts. After the six months, we came up with our report. The report
indicted several people, companies and the board and management of NPA.
We submitted the report. For your information, that report is not a
criminal investigation report, it is an administrative fact-finding
report. It was after the submission of that report that EFCC was mandated to
carry out a criminal investigation, and we are doing that now. You
see, Nigerians would always want you to do things their own way, but we as
law enforcement agents, we must always strive not take sides.
So nobody told you not to touch Bode George?
At all. Who is Bode George? Did you not know that we touched an
Inspector-General of Police? We brought him to justice. We touch ministers,
we touch the Senate President, even the President himself, we look at
his statements. Who is Bode George that we cannot touch? What is
special about Bode George, especially when it comes to EFCC? When we are
ready for him, we shall get him. Nigerians are just a bit too much in a
hurry, it is just undue pressure.
President Olusegun Obasanjo will be handing over next year, May 29. Do
you think we can get somebody who is not corrupt to rule come 2007.
I know that it is very possible; a corruption-free Nigerian will surely
rule this country come 2007. I am also happy that the President has
laid a solid foundation for the future of this country and on the basis of
that, he is going to enthrone good governance, accountability and
transparency in the politics of this country. He will steer the country
towards ensuring that there is transparent and good leadership in 2007.
You think we have somebody with both political and economic clout to
assume leadership in 2007?
For goodness sake, this is a country of over 150 million. A country of
talents, first class brains, with proven record of performance. With
good opportunities and a chance to exhibit these qualities, Nigerians
will never lack.
Are you offering this hope to Nigerians?
Surely, there is hope. You see, I can understand you; I appreciate
your concern. It all boils down to what I said before – where we are
coming from. We are coming from a background of hopelessness and
despondency. But considering the recent happenings, the political developments, the processes of political and democratic evolution show that we can
actually do what is right. We have Governors who are being brought to
justice; some members of the National Assembly are facing trial for
corrupt practices. Honestly, there is no [other] African country where such a
thing is happening, it is a good development. This is an indication
that we can actually do things right; this includes of course, getting the
leadership that will be different from what we had in the past. I must
tell you that things are changing in this country, democratic
institutions are being strengthened, even there is a great improvement in INEC,
no doubt about that. So if you have such visible improvements, then you
can really comfortably say that we shall get corruption-free
individuals who will lead this country come 2007. Going by the mood of the
country, I don’t think Nigerians will tolerate a corrupt politician to come
and rule. It is just not possible. I believe in a dictum which says:
You deceive the people sometimes; you cannot deceive the people all the
time. Enough is enough of the deceit and mismanagement of public
funds.
Suppose corrupt people come up to ask people for their votes in the
2007 presidential race, how are you going to stop them?
We cannot say you cannot be a candidate, but we can investigate. We
must investigate and tell the people the outcome of our investigation,
because if we don’t do it, we would have failed in our responsibilities.
We have been asked to come and fight economic and financial crimes and
we must do our job to the best of our ability. We would never allow
people who have stolen to use the same stolen resources to compromise the
whole process and get into power. If we see them and we fold our arms,
we are indirectly destroying ourselves because we have no other country
except Nigeria.
When you investigate, will you make the outcome available to Nigerians?
Well, at a particular time. We might not be able to come out with
details; that is part of the professionalism of our job. We have to be
cautious so as not to jeopardise our investigation. But it will get to a
stage where our investigation will be made public. TheNEWS magazine has
published a couple of investigations of corrupt Nigerians; these
publications even helped our cause sometimes. If we have quality leadership
– people who are not thieves as leaders, people who will manage our
resources very well – you will not get 419 people, and we would not be
wasting all our time and resources on fighting 419. A good system will
ensure justice and fairness, there won’t be insecurity which is all over
our country now. The lawlessness going on in the Niger Delta is as a
result of bad leadership. We have to work towards getting a leadership
that will be free of all the societal vices.
Do you have a broad shoulder to carry out this Herculean task?
It’s not for me alone. It’s something all of us must work towards. It
is collective work. We may be the one spearheading it, but it is a
responsibility that lies on each and every one of us.
There are some presidential aspirants who have ruled this country
before; an example is IBB. If up till now you have not established any case
of corruption against him, will Nigerians not think it is for political
reasons you are now digging up facts just to nail his ambition?
We have come to know that if people want to protect themselves, they
will always find a way of going about it. Was anything done on Ajudua,
Nwude, or even Tafa Balogun until we did something? There will always
be a time when something will start. Have you ever heard that an
Inspector-General was tried and convicted? What EFCC is doing is happening
for the first time in our history. We will not shy away from our
responsibilities; it is a matter of time. The work we are doing will cover
every individual, especially those who say they want to come to power.
In England today, any politician who indicates interest in contesting
election will undergo scrutiny. Everything about him will be made
public. This is normal. Today, Nigeria has changed and we are going to do
things that operate in the developed world. If you are interested in
public office, you are opening your own cupboard. And if you have any
skeleton, please don’t go there. In your interest, just hide and be
enjoying yourself and pray we don’t get you even in your hiding, because
nobody dey above the law. It’s not good for trouble to be sleeping
make yanga go wake am. This is a new Nigeria. We are going to do things
like in the developed world. No matter how highly placed you are, if
you say you are interested in managing the human and material resources
of this country, you must subject yourself to probe to ensure that you
have the credentials. You must be ready to open up.
So you are not intimidated?
Me, intimidated? By who? No way. I can only be intimidated by God.
Your investigation on the Presidential Library is still pending.
Governor Orji Uzor Kalu’s petition against the President is still pending.
Why is it taking time to come up with your reports?
These reports are almost ready. It’s not something we can rush. If you
rush them you mess them up. It will take a while to do a thorough and
good investigation especially if it is a very complicated case. Facts
are not easily accessible to build up evidence, so one has to work
tenaciously. All over the world, investigation lingers, sometimes for
upwards of 10 to 15 to 20 years. But EFCC is just three years old and we
have done so many cases; we have been able to bring people to justice.
Today, we have over 400 criminal cases going on in our courts. We have
over 70 convictions and I think it is fair for you to appreciate that
within this short time, we have done well. By any standard in the
world, we have done well. The entire Ministry of Justice in Nigeria does
not have up to 70 convictions. Go to the Crown prosecution in London,
they don’t have that record, go to FBI in U.S.A., they don’t have that
record. We take our time to do what is right and at the time we arrive at
a conclusion, we make our findings public. In the case of the
library, of course from the beginning when the whole thing started, first and
foremost our primary concern is to protect public money. When public
money is misused or taken to the wrong place we follow it up. There is
no single penny of government in that library project, not a single
penny, and I challenge any Nigerian to come and tell us if government money
is in the project.
Two, Presidential Library is not an idea limited to Nigeria. We are
trying to copy what is obtainable in the other parts of the world. Every
past president in the US does has a presidential library and
foundation. In fact, in the U.S. they take government money and give it to the
foundation. In Nigeria, we have not done that. These are some of the
things needed to promote governance for research. It’s a good development
for government. It was not Obasanjo himself that took the money; he in
fact contributed to the project. Obasanjo Farms also contributed to
the project, and you know the constitution allows him to farm.
Contributions came from the private sector. Sometimes people say they disagree
with the timing, they say it should have been after leaving office. But
that it happened while in office does not make it criminal. Remember
too that it is happening for the first time. As we move forward, probably
we would improve.
You are after so many powerful people. Are you not afraid of the
threat to your life?
I really do not know what this fear is. I have never had it. I do
not have it. I believe in doing what is right. I am not careless, I
think I am extremely careful and properly so. I really can justify all my
actions and inactions. And these people know that they themselves are
responsible for what is happening to them. As a human being, you should
have respect for your life, but I believe in what I am doing because
they are in the best interest of the country. Of course you can see that
things are changing for the better. One of the reasons I joined the
Police in spite of all odds is because I hate injustice. And I can tell
you that for this cause, I can lay my life for this country. I can
sacrifice anything and I have no regrets. This is all about choice. I
have chosen to do this and I am going to give my all to it. Some people
have chosen to be armed robbers, which is the most dangerous thing to
do. Anything you decide to do in this life has its own hazards. Pilots
face the hazard of plane crash, soldiers die in war, and policemen get
killed in the course of their duty. Mine is just one of those hazards.
I believe we must put our best into whatever we do and this is what I
do. The job is dangerous. We have lost people in the course of the job
but somebody will have to do the job and somebody must do it. To me, I
think I am fortunate to do it. My friends think it is unfortunate, but
the most important thing is the honesty and transparency you show in
doing it, and that we have shown.
With all these, do you hope to go into politics someday?
I am from a political family but by my nature, I am not the type that
looks in that direction. My father was minister and even at the moment,
my brother is a local government chairman. We are probably the biggest
political family in the state. But this does not necessarily mean that
I am going to be a politician. My law enforcement assignment now, I am
sure, is very important to the country and me. It has never crossed my
mind.
But has there been any such request?
Every day.
What are your plans after leaving this job? Do you hope to go back to
the Police Force?
No. To be honest, I do not mind to be a normal person like every other
Nigerian. For example, after service, I can go into private practice.
I am a lawyer. I have been to court several times, I have had very
successful prosecutions. I know with that I can eat and keep body and
soul together. I can go back to school and become a lecturer. I
appreciate those who live a very simple and humble life even after holding
public office. One of the things that attracted me to Tunde Idiagbon was
that after his office, he went quietly and lived peacefully in Ilorin.
He had no time courting colleagues like some are doing. They want to
always remain big men. They want to always remain the ones to call the
shots, and arrogantly too. They want to remain the kingmakers and
everything.
While some would salute your courage in arraigning a former IGP who
was your boss, others believe that you did it out of vengeance because
he was said to have opposed your appointment. How true is this?
This is all part of the bid to discredit us. He was the
Inspector-General of Police but he had no say or hand in my appointment. I was not
even in the country when the President nominated me and the National
Assembly confirmed me. In my position, I am not in any way answerable to
the Inspector-General of Police. And I see no reason why anybody would
say a thing like this. But whatever you do, someone is going to read
meaning into it. Nobody could see exactly what the man did. This is
somebody we took well over $150 million from. More so, I had a good
working relationship with him. I am not aware of any malice. I am not sure
if he decides to talk someday he will say this. Of course, I was his
boy and he knew what I did.
Is he off the hook now?
No. He still has a criminal case going on.
Is it true that the six months sentence was a deal between the EFCC and
Tafa?
Of course not. It is the court that does the sentencing and not the
EFCC. Our own is to build a case and take it to the court for decision
and sentencing. I think I should refer people to the judge to go and find
out whatever about the sentencing.
Is there anything in your background that prepared you to tackle
corruption?
To be honest, I do not know. I would not even be able to tell you
exactly but I think people are made the way they are. Well, maybe the
background, the upbringing, the parental role and the individual trait. I
cannot say I am different.
Have you considered doing a book on your experiences and all that?
Very well. I think some of the things we are putting in are what we
have participated in and that can help shape the future.
So there are people that are already working on it?
Oh yes.
Lately, nothing has been heard about the case of Gov. Joshua Dariye.
Is it over?
No. It is not over.
So what is the latest?
He is a fugitive in the entire world. He dare not step an inch out of
Nigeria. Here, he is protected by the law but a day will come when the
protection will be over. Let’s pray that God give us long life to see
it. It is not over.
Is it true that you are withholding the 10per cent commission (about
$650,000) due to the ABZ in the recovery job they did for you?
These are things people are doing daily to take money away from
government. It is a fraudulent scam – lies, stealing – they come out with all
sorts of fraudulent ideas to take money from government. This is
someone who came to us that he had an idea to recover money and since we do
not close our doors to information, we listened to him. And we have
been recovering the money. We have recovered over N5 billion from people.
But we do not think that should be a licence to take money away from
government illegally. Never! When he worked for us, we paid him for the
services that he rendered to the tune of hundreds of thousands of naira.
But nobody has the right to take from revenue money. This is for the
government. Should you then say that we that have been recovering this
money should also collect 10 per cent. Some things are unbelievable in
this country. Before he came here, he had gone to several law
enforcement agencies and they never gave him a penny. He went to the police,
FIRS and all that as far back as seven years ago and it has become a
business to him. He has tried everything – he blackmailed us but nothing
can change the truth.
But the Minister of Solid Minerals wrote a letter saying the money
should be paid. What do you say to that?
But she did not say 10 per cent commission. The Minister of Solid
Minerals in her capacity as Chairman of EITI called all of us and after
the presentation, she said we should pay him something for the job done
but did not say we should give him 10 per cent. And to us, we had
already done that. We had paid him for the entire job done. I have all
the receipts. Should I also then ask for 10 per cent of the N5 billion
that we recovered? Maybe President Obasanjo should also ask for 10 per
cent of the billions that were recovered from the Abacha loot. Maybe
you (TheNEWS) should also be paid 10 per cent for the exposures you have
made. I remember TheNEWS broke the 419 news of the Anajembas upon
which we launched investigations. We recovered over $100 million from the
case.
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