A: There have been a few positive changes, obviously. That is, shall we say, in the physical way of doing things. That is, the attempt at what generally goes by economic reforms, using the expression of the government, and I think to the extent of the tightening up of the loose money everywhere, including or especially the work of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC). I know for a start that beginning from Abacha, quite a lot of money has been recovered, which properly belongs to the people. And one should give some marks for them.
Outside of that, I think there is misery. In other words, I have not seen the economic reforms translate to palpable benefits to the people. There is still a high level of economic misery. There has been a subtle devaluation of the Naira in my view, leading to a reduction in its power of purchase, especially even of basic materials. So, in that sense, I haven?t really seen these economic reforms as being convincingly translated to material benefit and improvement of the living conditions of people. Where there are gains, they have just been swallowed up, for instance, by inefficiency of infrastructure and most especially, of course, by power. Without power, a modern society simply cannot survive. A promise which was made that there would be a guaranteed power supply, both for domestic and productive use, has not been fulfilled and the power is just epileptic. If you look at the billings which come every month, each time I see them, I scream. I live half the time outside and I keep getting bills which are much higher than when the entire family lived with me. So, theoretically, it looks as if the government is satisfied that its economic policies are taking place. Of course the outside world seems to be very happy with the economic reforms. They see corruption being tackled and so on. But once again, I do know that what I see is a self-canceling policy.
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Now for the more critical part. Some people feel that the economy was in critical shape. It is true. But as you know, my main field is a question of how people get the quality of existence, spiritual quality of existence. I define that in terms of freedom; just how free are people under our democracy today? It seems to me that the chains have been put back on the citizens of this nation. There is a brutality, insensitivity of government, the disobedience of the rule of rule of law which, of course, means that we are living under a dictatorship. I do not see a dictatorship as an improvement on the quality of existence, of civic existence of people. It?s been a very brutal government. The democracy has been bastardised so that we find it difficult to recollect if this was supposed to be a democratic regime. The police have gone haywire and marches are still being disrupted. On the right to assemble and hold rally, for instance, the police pretend that the courts have not spoken on this matter. There are witnesses, grieving women witnesses, being teargassed, baton-charged. They are not aggressive people; we are talking about law-abiding people and members of the society, who join their own companions in grief and we see them treated in this brutal, fascistic manner without any kind of apology. We see what is happening to the air ways. The skies have never been more unsafe in this country, under this regime. So what on earth is going on even in systems which are under the direct control of the government? We don?t know where all the savings have gone.
Traveling by road is also not safe...
A: The dangers! Don?t even talk about that. Of course when people lose confidence in the air, they take to the roads. And who is waiting for them? Armed robbers! Life has become very brutish under this administration.
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Many have expressed fears that 2007 may not hold. Do you also share this fear?
Something is going on at the moment under the title, primary elections and so on. And look at the pages of the papers. I think I only read of one or two which appeared to have gone off peacefully and to be well-structured. I have listened to people who lost out in some of these primaries and we are talking about the ruling party which, of course, sets the example.
The brutality and unruliness with which the elections have been held so far indicate that this is setting a very direct agenda for the way elections will be run in 2007. From all the reports, the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) is not ready. It is not anywhere near ready. Look at the voters? register. Then there is the game plan of the incumbent himself, the President. When an outgoing individual makes it so plain and even declares that he wants to put the next person there, he is already declaring that there is no election, that this is going to be a continuation of a dynasty, a dynasty of minds. We already know what kind of a mind we have there. It means that he is doing everything possible to ensure that a clone of Obasanjo is the one he leaves behind.
And the pattern is already there in the way the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) primaries are going on. This shows in the combination of the dissatisfaction of people, the direct disrespect for the rule of law, the dissatisfaction of the people, the lack of faith even in the judiciary (forget the most recent instance where the judiciary appears to have woken up to its responsibilities).
But so far, what is the history? The history of the elections contested and the final decisions of those elections not being taken until the terms of office are nearly out. I mean, all these are contributing to a certain sense of political malaise which means that people don?t have any confidence in the uprightness, in the probity, of the coming elections. Too many forces are at work against the elections. But the ultimate one is the preparedness or otherwise of the organ which has been set up to execute electoral programmes.
There is this anointing going on of candidates at the primaries. We have cases of governors who want to behave like Obasanjo, installing their clones. Isn?t that also dangerous?
That is what I am talking about, because it is part of the complaint which is being made. The very pattern of the election indicates that imposition, rather than genuine election, is what is going on. It is almost as if the 2007 elections are primed to fail. Let me be very blunt. I get the feeling sometimes that the President is manipulating even some of these dissatisfactions to create an atmosphere in which the country would become a space of anomy, over which he can then pronounce a state of emergency. In other words, it seems to me that this is what he has been doing in some of the states, because there is no question at all, even a new-born baby knows that the presidential hand has been in virtually all these states where there has been an alleged breakdown of law and order. It is not a question of whether he has the tips of his fingers there or up to the palm, or up to the wrist or right up to the elbow or even right up to the shoulder. But the question of the guilt, I mean, after he leaves office, there should be a commission of enquiry to look into the very malicious preparations that have gone on towards the elections. It is as if the third term agenda has not really been abandoned. That really is my warning.
To what would you ascribe the President?s keenness in associating with people like Adedibu, the Ubas?
It is a mystery to me. It looks as if he is comfortable only in the company of political reprobates. It seems to me that is where he finds his ease and that says so much about his political leanings. I cannot understand. The problem of Oyo State for instance, incidentally has been identified years ago by the former Chairman of PDP, Audu Ogbeh. He told the PDP, I know this for a fact, what needed to be done in order to maintain political peace in Oyo State. Instead, the very people who have been identified as the malignant boil in the political body of Oyo State are the same with whom this President has chosen to associate. I don?t like to base my comment on rumours but when you look at the conduct and pronouncements of this man, Adedibu, over the Oyo incident and you look at the whole process four days after the Supreme Court?s final decision.
In other words, we are talking about the police ? allowing a clear four days for Adedibu?s gang to try and manipulate and reverse the decision of the Supreme Court.
Nobody can tell me that Obasanjo did not personally endorse that gap, that hiatus, that he did not know about or endorse it. Nobody can persuade me and I doubt very much if any sincere, objective person will attempt to defend the conduct of the President over the Oyo crisis. So it?s a mystery which has to be explained. We need a psychologist to help us unravel the psychological problems which the President has and which makes him believe that of all the choices he can make, of the political company he can keep in this nation, are those identified as totally irredeemable political thugs.
Another thing that is worrisome in the country is the feud between the number one and two citizens. What do you make of it?
My opinion is that there is something that is profoundly rotten within the presidency itself. When we try to analyse the problems of this nation, the problems it has had since the so-called democratic dispensation, ultimately you are going to find out that everything stems from the presidency. That is my only take on that situation.
You?ve been involved in some efforts to find some kind of solution to the problems in the Niger Delta. How much progress have you made and how did you come about the initiative?
I should explain that the Nobel Laureates meet generally, once a year, in which they examine the state of the world, if you like, and identify certain trouble spots and try to set some task force or commission to look into those areas and see how they can contribute from their experience and their generally acknowledged political neutrality towards the resolution of a number of issues. At the meeting of last year, the problem of Darfur was prominent. Three major trouble spots preoccupied the Laureates: the Middles East, of course, that has always been on the agenda, then Darfur in Sudan and then Niger Delta. Obviously, with kidnapping and killings, blowing up of stations, it became inevitable, as it became world news. Delta was debated last year. I was already on the Darfur Commission and when the Commission for Delta was set up, I became involved in the Delta Commission. Frankly, I said at the beginning that I was not going to be involved and everybody agreed with me that I should be engaged in something outside Nigeria because I was already partisan there. I know exactly how I believe things should be done. But after the Sudanese government refused permission for our commission to go there, we waited and waited, then I became involved in the Delta affair, I think to the extent of accepting to welcome the members of the commission when they come and prepare the ground for them. So that is how I became involved in the Niger Delta Commission. We went there ? an advance team ? saw the place, took evidence among the people, took photographs, films, videos and the whole report was sent back to the commission. We interviewed people in the NDDC which was set up by Obasanjo. I would say that we did a very dense political, economic assessment of the area and we were able to send the report back. The Niger Delta Commission was to follow the report but then, there were more kidnappings, the incident of those 14 youths who were mowed down by the military came up. Then the crisis in Lebanon flared up. I am just mentioning a number of factors which prevented the coming of the commission and they won?t be coming for some time because the volatility has increased. In any case, in the meantime, they have all become involved in so many other directions. So I don?t know exactly when they will return. Also, we were given a certain date which was chosen to ensure that it did not clash with the political primaries. So it was a date agreed to by both sides. Once that window has been missed, it becomes very difficult for these people who are very busy all over the world to be assembled. So, in the meantime, they decided that since we have seen the report, we must also issue an interim report. That is the report we sent to all the media. Incidentally, even more people have signed up on that report, including Jose Ramos-Horta, the Nobel Peace Prize winner. The Dalai Lama sent us his letter a few days ago. So the next stage is of course to now talk to the government. An audience was requested when Obasanjo went to Japan. But you know, the helicopter crash made him come back straight away. But an audience has been requested in New York because he was supposed to go to there. It has been passed through the Embassy in New York or Washington, I don?t know. The Commission is waiting for the reply from the government so as to know what next step it would take. But I should emphasise the fact that it?s a report which assesses the situation, the historical background, the actualities, the role of the petroleum companies, governments etc. It is actually a project which involves even my practical contributions that could be possible from the expertise of the Nobel Commission. For instance, we discussed even the issue of architecture which would be best for a riverine area. The commission has also looked into the cost of building roads in such swampy areas. The Commission would like to be even more deeply involved in the reconstruction process, not just a question of apportioning blames and calling on the government to fulfil its agreement with the people. In addition to all of that, the technical expertise of the commission is being placed at the disposal of government but there has not been any answer from the government. I can say categorically that the Nobel Commission will not come in full to the Delta after its initial step without the complete cooperation of the government. One of the points emphasised by the Nobel Commission is the release of their (Niger Delta?s) detained leaders. They are the most pertinent in connection with the bombings.
Apart from the restiveness of the youths in the Niger Delta, there are agitations right now from the governors in the zone that it is their turn to rule Nigeria?
I don?t believe in this turn-by-turn thing for a moment. I don?t believe in the zoning of political offices. It is one of the most obnoxious, backward ideas ever implanted in this country. Whether you talk about South-West, East, no.
There are some historical situations, I agree. Take for instance the kind of regional apportionment of political positions in a country like Lebanon because of its history, or in certain parts of Central Europe.
One can understand that as a temporary device. But ultimately, I believe in meritocracy. Let the person considered best do the job. I repeat, I do not care if the next president comes from Obasanjo?s own home as long as he/she doesn?t share his traits. That is all. And if the next president comes from the Delta region and when the next elections come, we find that they have been hiding some geniuses, political and organisational geniuses in that place, then by all means, let this nation continue to vote for those individuals whose mental state and credentials are apparent to everybody. So I totally abhor the notion of rotation or zoning. What benefit does it give to those areas from which these people come? They just use the zoning thing in order to acquire power. It is personal, not regional zoning. That is my last word on that subject.
There is also this notion that leaders of the Niger Delta cheat them of their resources ?
But this is true
Did your commission say anything on that issue?
No, remember this is an advance team and we have to report or draw conclusions from the interviews we have made. But at the same time, we did not ignore history and you will find one or two sentences referring to, in fact, the lack of probity between the leadership and some of the followers. I think that point was made but it is something one would like to go deeper into.
How would you explain the rash of impeachment that we suddenly found on us? Where do you think it will take us?
It is amala politics. That?s what we are witnessing today. People elect the legislators the same way as they elect their governors and the president and vice president. It is wrong, both in the spirit and letter, to simply use your weight of number, or your cosiness with the central powers to control the police, to use that cosiness to hold meetings at 4 or 5 a.m. in the morning with a minority to substitute fakes, thugs for the genuinely elected people; to even put as Speaker of their impeachment session, somebody who has never been elected! All these things were caught on video. For it to be condoned from the very top is a very disastrous path for this nation. There are people who deserve to be impeached. If somebody is found with his hands in the till and the case is brought properly before the Assembly, for God?s sake, let the law take its course.
Because I don?t want people to lose the significance of what happened in Oyo State, it is crucial even to the mental preparation for 2007. People must understand that in a certain nation, the Supreme Court gave an order. They must ask themselves: how is it possible for even the thought to be inserted in the head of anybody, any human being within that polity, that he should go to the lower court and ask the lower court to upturn the decision? It is a critical thing. I am asking Nigerians to please devote at least five minutes a day to thinking about how that mentality exists in the first place. How that little call of satanic thought entered the head of anybody that they should go to court. Then, how could that thought process have been encouraged to believe that it could emerge victorious. I will tell you why. Because the owner/proprietor of that thought had been guaranteed somewhere that something would happen and that they would be given enough time. That is why Thursday the judgment took place, Friday, nothing had been done. The impostor/usurper was not told: pack your bag and leave tomorrow. When Ladoja was to be removed, police were there in full force without any delay to ensure that the impostor took office and backed him with the full complement of police power. There was no problem then and there was no judgment then. The Supreme Court spoke this time, then Friday and then Monday. What is the police business to say what time a governor should resume office? Why couldn?t Akala have taken off during the weekend? Very convenient period. It is so dishonest, so corrupt a process and it could have been authorised from the very top. We?ve seen how the police react to orders from court ? pick and choose. There is somebody in this country who thinks that he is over and above the highest law of the land. I want people to sit down and give their thought, their imagination to what was going on. Let them put themselves ? I know it?s very difficult and degrading ? in the position of the amala politicians, all those who were involved in it, and try and follow them around. Where did they go and which direction did they work? Who did they talk to? How much money came in? If they don?t do that, if they don?t take advantage of this fortuitous opportunity, they may not have the chance again.
But this manipulation, the most obscene example of impeachment, has been that of Peter Obi. Not one crime has been attributed to him. It is a continuation of the godfather, Uba?s attempt to control Anambra State. And for this to happen so blatantly, shows a contempt for due process, rule of law and for the will of the people. Money, amala is behind all impeachments.
The PDP has always tried to destroy all opposition parties. Is this right for democracy? Even the opposition parties appear spineless...
When there is too much money flying around, unaccountability, which means money can substitute a process, it is not surprising that the party which basically controls the bulk of the resources would want to sit there permanently. Money buys power and power accumulates money, no matter how. The PDP, as I have stated it, is the most evil construct that we have ever witnessed in this nation. There are still a few good people there, let me be fair to everybody, but most of those with conscience have left the party. There is no question at all about that and what we have there is a remnant of the most vicious and tenacious of the evil empire. I am using the expression of an American President. I can?t think of a better one except you want to go into demonic kingdom, diabolic mega space or whatever. We will still get down to that succinct expression even though it was misused by that American President. But really, it is very applicable to the Nigerian situation. That evil empire, created by Obasanjo, his bequest to this nation after the struggle and sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of people after the agony of millions of people, the death, martyrdom of so many people and the experience of torture, permanent mental disability which has been inflicted on the people during the struggle against Sani Abacha, to end up with this kind of regime, which then wants to perpetuate itself. I am putting this as strongly as possible because I want to remind Nigerians of what they have obtained in return for years of agony, for the distortion in civil existence and this is what has replaced it. Again, it reminds me of that biblical passage, when a King said, my father flogged you with a whip, I will thrash you with scorpion. That really describes what has been going on. And the opposition must come together and there has to be an alliance to ensure that this misrule is terminated. Otherwise, all the evidence is there that there are plans to rig elections in 2007 or to create or foment such chaos that it will be possible to declare a state of emergency all over the country and continue with this misrule. I am appealing to the people of this country to rally around and identify individuals and ensure that the power of the people is manifested both on the preventive and elective levels. People should start working now to undermine the conspiracy to rig 2007 elections. I have no confidence in INEC by the way. Let me say this quite clearly, I have absolutely no confidence in INEC. That INEC should decide to go ahead with the electronic voting machine, over objections and over advice from those nations which have used it, which are more technologically attuned. That it would go ahead and insist on using this electronic system speaks ill of the honesty of INEC. On a personal level, I know how INEC has done everything possible to thwart the registration of the DFPF ? there is always a new objection each time. After a query has been answered by our people, there will be a gap of a long time and then another one. They would say: You have no boardroom, how do we know that this office belongs to you?
But can?t office be donated or lent? But I will be talking about that at the appropriate time. I can however assure you that we have one or two surprises for INEC. But both from my personal experience and objective overview of everything, it is clear that INEC is not an honest organisation. It is right in the pocket of the President or the presidency.
There is also the issue of impotent opposition parties. They are virtually doing the same thing right now as PDP.
I have been hearing very disturbing news over the last couple of days about imposition within certain opposition parties. We have a responsibility to denounce this wherever and whenever it takes place. What should the opposition do? The opposition should say to the megaliths of power right now that: look, you don?t represent the people. We will represent the people. To be able to earn that accolade of being the true representative of the people, you must, very scrupulously, even bend over backwards to reflect the will of your micro-electorate at the primary level. It is as elementary as that. Anything short of that will make people conclude that you are just a copy of those people you are opposing.
What kind of leaders would you advise Nigerians to vote for?
I agree with Omololu Olunloyo, my crazy friend. He talks sense sometimes! But I agree with him 100 per cent that we should look for a proven technocrat. We take for granted probity, record of integrity etc. But let us look for a proven technocrat, somebody who will look at this nation like a real estate which requires good estate manager, who will identify the productive areas and maximise the productive capability of those areas and enhance the capability of less productive areas. Forget for a moment ideology etc. Let the party carry out the ideological aspect. Nigeria needs somebody who will treat this nation like an engine; know where all the moving parts are; know where to oil the parts and how to do a bit of carnibalising; recognise what cannot work; take away the good things in some engines and insert them into another. So a combination of a good estate manager, a sound technological mind, that is what we should look for in addition to the basic things ? absolute integrity, somebody who genuinely, unlike the present regime that does not care for the people, doesn?t despise, who respects, recognises that he does not have one head more than any other individual and somebody who listens, who doesn?t think he is omniscient, knows the answers to everything and bloody fools everybody who disagrees with him.
Among those who have expressed interest, do you see anyone in that frame? And is there any hope that the parties will allow for such leadership to emerge?
They will destroy themselves if they do not collaborate to allow such. That message is what we have to hammer home. That if the political and opposition parties keep on behaving selfishly, they will be destroyed. Let them go and look at the experience of Kenya. Kenya learnt eventually how to deal with Arap Moi but they wasted a number of years before arriving at that wisdom. They have no choice than to collaborate because it is the only thing that can destroy the secret machinery of this regime.
Who is this leader that fits the ideal you set?
I won?t say who yet. We will announce. We said at the beginning when we went through the routine exercise of getting the DFPF. We will have a say in who becomes the Nigerian leader and we will have a role in who emerges the president of this nation ? with the collaboration of others, of course. We are talking at the moment, we are analysing and I can tell you confidently that DFPF has entered into alliance with one of the political parties ? with one of the tiniest, most impoverished parties you can think of. You will be learning in a few days which party that is. This is where we are pooling our non-existent money.
What impact do you think you can make with that impoverishment?
Let people understand that power ultimately is there even without a penny. If the people of this nation move, we are rich and wealthy. These parties I am referring to are wealthy in the sense of the kind of support that they enjoy among people who are only waiting for that kind of guidance that can be given by the party. We are not talking about the usual way of doing politics. We are talking about mobilising people, at the very grassroots level, reminding them of their own worth, advising them on what tactics to use in order to protect their vote. These are what we can bring to the table. We will also be saying to people, as I have said before, anybody bringing money to you, take it and then go and vote according to your conscience. It happened before when, against all odds, somebody emerged who nobody thought would have emerged. That can be done.
That is assuming that the people?s votes would count...
What am I telling you? Their votes will not count if they do no get up! That is what we are saying. You cannot keep repeating ?how do you know their vote will count?? We are saying to people, go and make sure your vote counts, defend your vote. That is the message; get ready first of all for preventive and strategic voting. Prevent, undermine, infiltrate the organs of INEC, begin right from now and start exposing and countering the various manipulations of government, with INEC and the voting system. After that, go out and vote and when you vote, be on the spot, remain there and defend your vote. That is it. We are calling on the emergence of people?s power. That is all we have. Nothing else.
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