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Sahara Reporters (SR): First question and we’ll like to be direct and precise, are you on political exile out of Nigeria?
Vice President Atiku Abubakar (VP): No, no, no, obviously not! Certainly not!
Sahara Reporters (SR): So how long are you going to be here on vacation and when are you going back exactly?
You see about 1½ months ago I put in my normal notification to the President of my intention to take my end of year vacation in the U.S. to be with my family and also to have some rest and he approved that. It was suppose to be between 2 to 3 weeks and [he] also approved the use of the Presidential aircraft. So, it’s certainly not a political exile and in any case I have enjoyed this kind of vacation for the last 7½ years. Every end of the year I come to stay with my family and sometimes we travel out together. So it’s not anything unusual.
(SR): When are you going back?
(VP): I should go back around mid-January.
(SR): So people in Nigeria should expect you back?
(VP): Oh yeah! Certainly yes because any case campaigns are suppose to start the same time so I should be on the campaign trail by then.
(SR): Are you aware that all [of] your staff have been redeployed, posted out as of yesterday, your residence sealed by security agents?
(VP): No, no, no, my residence has not been sealed; my things are still there so I haven’t moved out of my residence.
(SR): What about your staff?
(VP): Yes, staffs I understand have been redeployed; most of them, but you know there are skeletal services.
(SR): So you’re still the V.P of Nigeria as of midnight mid-January?
(VP): Of course, of course, of course.
(SR): Vice President Atiku there are people who would say, this is the prevailing opinion that this serves you right, that you been with Obasanjo together taking all these decisions, oppression of the people, all his policies that you’ve repudiated. How do you react to that?
(VP): How would you say it serves me right, by being apart of an elected government for the last 7½ years or what do you mean by that?
(SR): The fact that Obasanjo was broke in 1999 when he came out of jail, you and some other people went and bailed him out, even Nasir El-Rufai said he had 20,000 Naira left and made him President. In 2003, you stepped down for him in the primaries so that he can be President again? You were called upon by the governors to contest and you said you want continuity. You have said it yourself that this government with its policy, their vendetta, their vindictiveness, all the things that have gone wrong with Nigeria which are also in your view, not acceptable. But you’ve been part of that?
(VP): You seem to misunderstand the role of the Vice President in our own country’s Constitution. My role as a Vice President is merely advisory. The President has said it repeatedly, that he doesn’t have to take the advice of either his ministers or anybody else, that he does what he believes is right for the country and as a Vice President you don’t have executive powers, you don’t have a budget, you can’t implement government policy, the most you can do is to advise. So what happens, when you advise and your advice is not heeded or is not accepted and the President has made it quite clear he is not bound to accept anybody’s advice? He will govern the country the way he deems fit and the way he deems right.
(SR): But there are feelings out there that if you so disagreed with him, you give him advice and he doesn’t accept and things are so wrong as you see with the security in Nigeria today, power supply, the economic state, the situation with the judiciary, situations in which the President violates the law, why didn’t you resign?
(VP): You forgot that this is a ticket and a ticket has a term. Of what use is my resignation going to make?
(SR): Even if it is just to show that you have a different conscience from that of the President? This rampaging President?
(VP): I believe it would have been better for me to continue dialoguing, drawing the attention of the President from within than from the outside. But eventually perhaps my thoughts and analysis have not come to be right because this is a President who would not listen to anybody. It’s just most unfortunate.
(SR): So you just stuck in there, give him advice and hope that he would listen for 7 ½ years?
(VP): Definitely, you see we did not start this way. The first term was really not that bad. We started on a good start. But along the way of course things went wrong and therefore we found ourselves where we are today?
(SR): But there is also the other dimension to it that you have repudiated everything this regime represents?
(VP): I did not repudiate everything because I said there are certain things I believe should not have been done the way they have been done. I did not repudiate everything.
(SR): But you have openly fallen out with the President?
(VP): Yes I have openly fallen out with the President, because I have openly fallen out does not mean I disagree with almost every government policy that has been implemented in the last 7 ½ years. I said it, I said it before.
(SR): Yeah, but right now there is no question that you guys have fallen apart. “Things have fallen apart and the center no longer holds”. What you used to be what you guys called “one presidency” is now a totally dysfunctional presidency?
(VP): Yes. In fact let me tell you the terminology I later came to realize the terminology of “one presidency” was employed in our second term. In hindsight, I now came to realize that that was intended to remove me out of the presidency, that was all that terminology meant because ever since we came back in our second term he had been removing every responsibility he had given me before until I was left with no responsibility. So that was his terminology: “one President, one person doing everything”. “One person President, one person Vice President, one person everything”.
(SR): For how long have you been on ‘vacation’ from the Presidency, as the Vice President of Nigeria?
(VP): I think for the greater part of the second term really.
(SR): You haven’t done anything at all?
(VP): No I haven’t done anything other than attend Federal Executive Council meetings. That’s all.
(SR): In 2003 coming to the second term when you finally fell out the issue has been widely reported in the media, it is that he felt that you challenged him and that he had his ego bruised because some governors called on you to run against him in the primaries. You declined because you wanted as I said before a continuum of your joint ticket?
(VP): I think it was more of a nationalistic instinct other then mere continuation. I have explained this over and over again. Some people have asked me whether I have not regretted what I did. I said no, I did not regret taking that decision. It was based on nationalistic instinct because you see before we came in 1999 there was this raging debate in Nigeria that the North dominated political power for three decades and I remember when we were in the Constitutional conference in 1994/95, you remember during Abacha’s time we deliberated as politicians agreed that after that Constitution or with that Constitution we should begin the policy of power rotation.
That we should all agree that power should move to the south whichever party you found yourself. So that came to pass in 1998 when we formed these parties. You recalled both 2 parties, both PDP and ANPP, had their presidential candidates from the south and fortunately PDP won. We came to the second term and here were these governors who foresaw or saw something that I did not foresee. They said, it was irrespective of whether Northern or Southern governors. They all came and converge and said, “look you’ve got to run, we don’t think we we’ll move on with this guy.” I said look, I mean whatever may be our difference lets go and sort it out with the Presidency because I believe that it is better that the Presidency is still left in the south. So it was out of Nationalistic instinct and so I took the governors along with me and we went to meet the President and said “look these governors have grievances with you and the way you have been running things, so lets discuss this, and he said we should all be very sincere, very open. And these governors opened up only for them of course later to be hunted for speaking to him. So it was actually based on nationalistic instinct rather then any personal gain.
(SR): Talking out 2003 again, it has been adjudged that the 2003 elections was the most rigged in Africa. You were part of that by virtue of the fact that you
(VP): Who adjudged that? Who adjudged that?
(SR): International observers, Nigerians, you have been in Nigeria; you’ve seen what has happened. People who didn’t win elections were rigged into office, even the Senate President we hear didn’t even win the elections this is something everybody knew. Do you have any regrets about the 2003 elections?
(VP): Which Senate President?
(SR): Adolphus Wabara, when he was there!
(VP): Honestly I don’t think I would agree with you on this analysis on this conclusion but these were elections results which were contested at the court of appeals contested at the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court returned a verdict that the elections were okay!
You must substantiate that these elections were not free and fair. So, where do you come with all of this, your sweeping statements, you know it was adjudged to be the most aggrieved elections in Africa, I mean where did you get that as a Nigerian?
(SR): As a Nigerian I listen and read reports from the field, electoral monitors, even before the Supreme Court came and said the elections weren’t that rigged. But don’t forget that even the Supreme Court said that in certain places like in Ogun State more people voted than registered and so many other cases like that, like in Anambra, even in other states where decisions were taken regarding rigging?
(VP): You remember there were differences, a difference of about 10 million votes. Even if you remove the votes in Ogun, you remove the votes in Anambra you are still going to end up with a huge difference lead by the PDP.
(SR): What about the legitimacy of an election if you have 10 million votes that came in illegally?
(VP): No, no, no, I said look, don’t misunderstand me. I said PDP was leading in the Presidential elections with about 10 million votes. So even if you take away the votes of Ogun, you take the votes away from Anambra and still other states, you are still going to end up with a huge gap between the PDP and the ANPP.
(SR): It was reported yesterday though one of our sources in Lagos that the AC party leadership came here to prevail on you to abandon your presidency in favor of Buhari, how correct is that?
(VP): Absolutely untrue! We never discuss anything like that. In fact if anything, in fact they came here to encourage me to finish up my vacation and come back to continue the leadership of the party and my candidacy. It was nothing like that, that was discussed. Absolutely nothing like that!
(SR): Taking from the experiences of M.K.O Abiola are you confident the members of AC can see you thru the tribulations that are going to come. Let’s say of instance when you arrive in Nigeria and you are arrested and detained and tried for the charges you said were trumped up against you. Are you confident that the party would not abandon you?
(VP): Abandon me how?
(SR): Because there are a lot of elements in this party who have done that before, abandon Abiola for example. They have the Tom Ikimis’ of this world in AC, all kinds of strange bedfellows, military collaborators?
(VP): No, I have every confidence in the leadership of the party, they will not abandon me.
(SR): The other question in this is that you have been favored by the judiciary. The judiciary has extremely been on your side in terms of support, you have been winning all of these cases…
(VP): No the judiciary has been on the side of the rule of law.
(SR): But you have been progressing well within the judiciary. You have even said it openly that you believe in the judiciary. Why can’t you say that I, Alhaji Abubakar Atiku waive my immunity I want to face Obasanjo and all the charges, I resign as Vice President and you face the charges, since you have so much faith in the judiciary? People think you are hiding behind immunity to cover up?
(VP): What have I been hiding behind immunity to cover up what? What have I been able to cover up all of these years?
(SR): But that is the point…
(VP): Haven’t I said that! Haven’t I said that! Haven’t I appeared before the National Assembly and say look I’m prepared to waive my immunity and bring whatever you have against me I have said it!
(SR): There is a question you didn’t answer yet? How much did you guy raise for Obasanjo in 1999? Who and who donated money to bring him out of his financial quagmire and now he is one of the richest people in Nigeria ?
(VP): (Laughs!) I don’t have to let you know what we raised and who raised what?
(SR): Isn’t it time that we start letting people know what transpired?
(VP): When the time comes I will let you know.
(SR): We’ve been waiting for years. I’ve waited for 35 years, my entire lifetime?
(VP): No you didn’t wait for 35 years, after all the incident only happened in 1998.
(SR): What about the incidences that have been happening before now. Similar incidences where we just sweep everything under the carpet?
(VP): No, I mean this is a much more open society perhaps than we use to have, like in military regimes and so on and military dictatorships. I believe everybody after leaving government we’ll begin to write his memoirs and so by the time we write you will know.
(SR): People of my generation are just sick and fed up with your generation. We feel like you’ve mismanaged and squandered our future. Isn’t it time that people in that class turn themselves in, instead of having this ambition to continue rule forever as things have not improved. What is driving the ambition of your generation to stick to power?
(VP): Which my generation is sticking to power? When have I even started? This is my 1st time in being in government in all my life. I’m 60.
(SR): You’ve been governor. Even if for one second, a governor elect?
(VP): No wait a minute, be realistic. What stops you from coming to Nigeria to participate in these things?
(SR): …I just came from Nigeria …
(VP): Eh, go there, the whole place is open, go and participate in the elections and go and win elections and change things.
(SR): Did you say the place is open?
(VP): Yes!
(SR): How come it’s closed against you?
(VP): No, it is not closed against me.
(SR): You have been hounded. Even with all your wealth, your influence, you have been hounded…
(VP): There are people as young as yourself who are in the national assembly, who are in the state assembly, who are in government.
(SR): Those ones have godfathers…
(VP): No! I don’t believe in godfathers. No, no, no, no! I disagree with you Sowore. There are many people I know who don’t have godfathers. Many of them!
(SR): Tell me one governor in Nigeria who doesn’t have a godfather, who is still in power today?
(VP): Many of them!
(SR): One, name one?
(VP): There are many of them who came to power without a godfather.
(SR): …And who are staying in power without a godfather,
(SR): I mean staying in power?
(VP): I don’t understand what you mean about this godfather business, honestly.
(SR): You confronted it in Anambra State for example. You were the one who saved Ngige’s skin, from Andy Uba and his brother, Chris?
(VP): Yes I did that because I believe in Constitutionalism and the rule of law.
(SR): That’s what we’re saying, what we’re saying is that there is no freedom, and no fairness in the electoral process and until that happens good people cannot participate?
(VP): Who will bring about this openness and fairness, if people don’t participate, if good people like you don’t participate? Who will bring about this fairness?
(SR): I’m participating in a different level. I don’t have to be a political office seeker to participate in reforming Nigeria …
(VP): Then you are not talking about your generation is fed up, your generation is fed up!
(SR): But that is the truth…
(VP): The point is that most of the people who are managing Nigerian affairs today from local government to state government to national assembly; most of them are in your age bracket.
(SR): What about the marionette (Remote) control, the fact that each of those persons who are in my age bracket belongs to a secret cult, has a godfather?
(VP): I don’t know, I don’t know about that. Don’t bring secret cults into this.
(SR): But that is the truth. I am talking about what I know…
(VP): I don’t know, I’ve never been a member of a secret cult and don’t know anything about a secret cult.
(SR): It doesn’t have to be a secret cult, as in drinking blood; it might be a secret cult of a powerful political movement that is not open to ordinary people except that you know somebody…
(VP): No, I disagree with you.
(SR): You are saying absolutely that Nigeria is an open society?
(VP): I did not have a godfather. I just came into politics just as an individual.
(SR): What about people saying that Obasanjo is your godfather, now you’ve fallen out with him, you are in trouble?
(VP): No, no, no, no Obasanjo has, never, ever been my godfather.
(SR): But he’s ‘God’ in Nigeria today, don’t you think so?
(VP): Well, I think I’ve only recalled one statement he made at the Federal Executive Council (FEC) where he said in Nigeria after God, he comes next.
(SR): Wow, he said that, and what did you do?
(VP): We just eh, laughed it off, eh, it was a joke.
(SR): So it one of those things you laughed off that now came back to haunt you?
(VP): Haunting me like how?
(SR): Because if you have challenged him, Sir, don’t you think, if you said, look you are not God..,
(VP): No, he knows that I have always said, always said look he is not God. This is my position. He knows my position. I have always known that he is not God, and he cannot be God, so what is the big deal.
(SR): Speaking about corruption, you have spoken extensively about it in recent times, the corruption in the Presidency. How Obasanjo corners everything, mismanage the PTDF and put it on you as the person who was responsible. How long have you known about these issues, because some of the evidence you produced were from 2002. So you’ve always known this and sat around with this and not report this to the ICPC or EFCC or at least to the Nigerian media until now.
Why have you been staying quiet on his corruption and he turned you into a corrupt person, he gave you a tag of the most corrupt Nigerian and you let him walk around until almost too late?
(VP): It is never late.
(SR): But why did you’ve wait until this late before reacting?
(VP): Of course, I had to react because there was reason for me to react.
(SR): …But there are people who felt that if things are going smoothly between the two of you we would never have heard about the sleaze going on in the Presidency.
(VP): Well… Why not, why not? You will always come to know it.
(SR): How would we have known?
(VP): It’s there, it’s there, and it’s on record. What are you going to do about that record?
(SR): For example, the documents you got from the PTDF for example. They are even saying that they were out rightly stolen. People like me can’t have access to that kind of documentation. If not for you we would never have seen those documents?
(VP): Well as far as I know, these documents are available and that you can have access to them. There is no way those documents can be destroyed because they are in the hands of so many people in Nigeria.googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('comments'); });
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