No, I don?t see anything wrong; I don?t see any reason why you should place an embargo on leaders on where they spend their vacation or where they decide to spend their money. I don?t think it is right, as long as that money is legitimately earned.
(SR): So you can look us in the eye as Nigerians and say I?ve never been involved or engaged in corruption before?
(VP): If you have any evidence you can supply it to the members of the public. Who ever has it!
(SR): I?m not the one who has the evidence; Obasanjo for example keeps saying you are corrupt?
(VP): I?ve challenge EFCC, I?ve challenged EFCC, and I have challenged all the investigative bodies. Whatever they have against me they are free to bring it out. And to see how I have used public funds to acquire what I have and so on and so forth. Is it not when you have access to public funds that [like I?ve been accused] you can be stealing them?
(SR): But what about the influence peddling?
(VP): What kind of influence? When no one reports to you, no governor reports to you, nobody comes to your house, nobody comes to your office? What influence do you have?
(SR): For example you sat over the privatization of major corporations in the country. You sat over PTDF until recently. Those are powerful positions?
(VP): Wait a minute; PTDF only approved three transactions in the few years that I exercised oversight functions. Only three transactions and those three transactions were not even expenditures they were all investments. Two of them were investments only one of them was an approval for an officer to attend a seminar. The only three decisions that I took.
(SR): But within that period also there were people who were stealing money out of the PTDF. Did you overlook that or you just didn?t think it was your duty?
(VP): No, no which were they?
(SR): For example also they accused you of fixing the interest rate for PTDF accounts?
(VP): No, no I did not fix the interest rates. That was never my responsibility as a Vice President to even start talking about interest rates.
(SR): What about the banks in which they say you put the monies, banks in which you have interest, banks owned by your friends?
(VP): This have an answered everything and I have provided documentation to this.
(SR): So you just think you?re being hounded?
(VP): Absolutely!
(SR): There is this question during Bola Ige?s death. Perhaps we should bring it to public attention, it was that the key suspect ? Fryo - told the lawyer Festus Keyamo, who I?m sure you know, that when there were going to kill Bola Ige that Omisore, the Senator, told him that ?the Vice President will protect you if you kill Bola Ige?.
(VP?s Aide interrupts): - You can?t ask such questions?
(SR to VP?s Aide): This is something that has to be cleared.
(SR): Did you know Omisore before, where you guys close?
I have only an acquaintance with Omisore. Yes I have known him; I?ve met him a couple of times. Yes.
(SR): Where you close to Bola Ige?
(VP): Certainly not!
(SR): I want to go back to the issue of private universities that you (?and Obasanjo) both own, because you didn?t answer that question as sufficiently?
(VP?s Aide interrupts again): Sorry to interrupt, I apologize, again but you are asking a question that has to do with a criminal offense involving another party and I don?t think he is competent on the issue and hearsay between two people.
(SR to VP?s Aide): It?s either we asked the questions or we don?t ask them, the more we ask them the better the clarification is out there. He should know that what has been taking his case far better is because he speaks out more. Maybe if he had been speaking out for the past seven years we wouldn?t be where we are today. But he?s been taciturn, he doesn?t like to speak, he doesn?t like to spill the beans and here we are. Look at what we are dealing with, Nigeria is in a Constitutional crisis based upon the madness of one man and his vice that ought to have cried out, but didn?t do that for a long time. So we are getting to a point where we?ve got to ask hard questions!
(VP?s Aide): I understand that but it?s just that these things are a criminal case.
(SR to VP?s Aide): Corruption is criminal too.
(VP?s Aide): You can read what he wrote on the PTDF. All the things he said have been elucidated too in the last one year, from November 2005 till now, not in 2002.
(SR to VP?s Aide): I read it extensively and even a Federal Minister is still reacting today to some of the past money that was used. So speaking out is not a bad thing at all. We are there already where clarifications ought to be made
(SR): ?So I want to go back to the University issue, how many Nigerians can actually afford to attend ABTI-American? Is it right to give yourself licenses to own universities while the public universities are getting destroyed?
(VP): No, no, I disagree with you; the public universities have actually been rehabilitated and approved upon since we came in, better then when we met them. So I disagree with you. And the issue of affordability is also not correct. Thousands of Nigerians are sending their children to universities in the United States here and I know what they pay. Up to now do you don?t pay up to U.S. $10,000 to attend the university, so I believe it is affordability for those who can afford to bring their children here and pay 30, 40 thousand dollars school fees.
(SR): On human rights, you said that it will not be a problem under your regime if you win the next presidential elections. But there has been a case where you said it was treason for the Nigerian Labor Congress (NLC) to go on strike?
(VP): No, no, no, illegal doesn?t mean treason. I know there were some illegal strikes because there were laws governing strikes in the country, so if you don?t go by that process it can be termed as an ?illegal strike?.
(SR): Isn?t that executive interference with worker?s rights?
(VP): No, you mean workers are not supposed to go by the rule of law?
(SR): But they also should be able to fight for their welfare by employing legitimate non-violent means of protest.
(VP): Yeah! I agree, I agree. Nobody perhaps demonstrated as a young person as I did. I went to jail for demonstrating for being in the streets all the time. It is something I believe in. But when you do it you must also do it within the rule of law.
(SR): I know you said that you don?t have any regrets. But if you look at some of the decisions that have been taken by this government in terms of blowing up Odi, Zaki Biam, there was a time even when your body guards beat up a journalist?
(VP): Please I was not party to all this, don?t ask me how decisions to blow up Zaki Biam, or Odi was taken.
(SR): You were not party to it? If you?re asked to say what are the three major things wrong with Nigeria today, what would you say they are?
(VP): Pause, pause, three major things?
(SR): Yeah?
(VP): I think I would like to see an end to this pretension with Nigerian leaders; people should be honest with Nigerians particular with the Nigerians.
Secondly I would like to see a more democratically open Nigeria. In other words, I mean openness of the space, democratically.
(SR): But you just told me that it was an open society; everyone was free to do whatever it is they like?
(VP): No! Open up to a level. When I say better open I mean better then it is now? Yeah, better then it is now. And then of course the unity of Nigerians.
(SR): These things are vague. How do people get united if they are unemployed, they get beaten by police, the infrastructure is in decay, pubic officials are stealing their wealth?
(VP): That is a different question all together than the question you asked me.
(SR): Maybe I should ask you which problems are going to be priority in the regime if you were to be President.
(VP): Well I have said them in my policy document. Of course it includes infrastructure, you know it includes job creation, poverty for young Nigerians who are roaming the streets all over or the villages.
(SR): How will that create jobs?
(VP): Of course if you read the document you will find how we intend to create jobs.
(SR): Because for example the Obasanjo regime created jobs according to them through people selling GSM (Mobile Phone Recharge Cards) recharge cards on the street. Those ones are not employment. Are you taking it to the next level? What is it?
(VP): Certainly yes, like there was a time we had this party nation between the Nigerian economists and government. There was actually one proposal that was agreed creating like ? a million entrepreneur every year. And each entrepreneur was to engage at least five people. I believe it?s one way of creating perhaps millions of jobs and actually I did not like the idea of how the government just waived it aside and went on to do other things. I would like to bring back those kinds of ideas by working closely with the private sector to see how jobs, sustainable jobs can be created for the Nigerian youth.
(SR): Again, going back to the private sector, privatization: a lot of national assets have been sold since 1999 and we are getting to find out now that they?ve been sold to cronies of people in power. In fact so many of the accusations against you are that so many of those companies like AP were sold to your cronies and later, we found that it?s Obasanjo who?s selling national assets to his cronies now.
How do we say that is privatization when we just give away national assets to people who are closest to those in power?
(VP): Before you come to this conclusion, I don?t want you to be making very sweeping statements.
First of all you must prove that those transactions did not go through due process, you must prove that perhaps the value at which they were sold, that they were undervalued and so and so forth. So by just making these kinds of sweeping statements I don?t think I will accept that.
(SR): Sir, for example, you take NITEL. Somebody bid for NITEL for 1.2 billion dollars, when it was sold it was sold for 750 million dollars. That is below even the bidding price of [what] we all know before. So how is that sweeping statements when we draw attention to such things?
(VP): No! You must also take into consideration when the fellow bid for $1.2 billion, did he pay? He couldn?t pay.
(SR): ?Not being able to pay doesn?t mean that wasn?t the value though.
(VP): Wait, wait a moment, and then the subsequent years the same process was employed to privatize NITEL and mark you in those years, subsequent years, other telecommunications were coming up, like the MTN, like GLOBACOM and so on and so forth and their coming up were devaluing NITEL over the years. And therefore it is not surprising at the end of the day, the international consultants agree to come and value NITEL, said look you are not likely to get the value you got four years ago because of the intervening period and because of the developments within the telecommunications sector. Then you have to take all things into consideration before you make all those sweeping statements.
(SR): You look at GLOBACOM. GLOBACOM is not anywhere near NITEL in value. NITEL has graduated properties not only in Nigeria, but abroad, cables, they have a lot of assets, no body is going to sell GLOBACOM today for $750 million, don?t you agree with me?
(VP): No, I am not one to make very definitive comments on that because I must be avail of facts and figures.
(SR): You?re a businessman you should have an idea of these things.
(VP): No, unfortunately my business in not in the telecommunications sector.
(SR): Where are your businesses?
(VP): Don?t worry when I give you my forms, you will see where businesses is.
(SR): If today there was an intervention between you and Obasanjo for reconciliation, would you reconcile with him?
(VP): Why not, it is only a political disagreement between me and the President.
(SR): So, it?s not personal?
(VP): No, I?ve never taken it personal. It?s a political disagreement.
(SR): But, he has taken it personal?
(VP): Eh, that is his business.
(SR): Are you waiting for him to stab you physically before you know that this is personal?
(VP): Eh, he will never get to stab me physically.
(SR): But there is a time that we feel that he gets angry and is beating up people.
(VP): (Laughs) Have you ever seen him beat up somebody?
(SR): the President of Ghana beat up his Vice President, that?s (VP): not new in Africa...
(VP): Well, I will not come near him to be beaten.
(SR): I hope not!
(VP): No!
(SR): Have you forgiven Gbenga Obasanjo for his interview last January?
(VP): No, that was a childish interview now.
(SR): ?it seems that what he said in the interview unmasked and unveiled what eventually became real occurrences between you and his father. It?s as if it was a prediction, you know he tagged you corrupt and his father followed up and then you saw what happened?
But before you answer that what exactly happened between your boy and yourself, EL-Rufai? Where did you guys fall apart?
(VP): I don?t want to talk about El-Rufai please!
(SR): Why not?
(VP): He?s just an appointee of government that?s all. But he was your deputy in the privatization at the BPE.
(SR): You worked together?
(VP): Yes, it?s true, I gave El-Rufai a job as a BPE Director General, its true I recommended him into the government to become a Minister. That?s the end of it, that?s all.
(SR): He has turned around and has been one of your greatest persecutors in this thing?
(VP): I wish him good luck.
(SR): You wish him good luck? ?it?s been said that you have recruited so many members of the so called economic management team. How many of them did you recruit, did you bring here? I know many of them live around here, with you here.
(VP): Quite a number of them actually. Quite a number of them.
(SR): Can you be more specific, sir?
(VP): No, I don?t want to be specific, it would not be fair. Both to the President, and to them, because they are still serving the government.
(SR): So you think if you mentioned who they were, they would
fire them?
(VP): No, I don?t think it would be fair for me to start mentioning names. But I know I brought most of them actually.
(SR): Sir, as it were, the despoliation of the Niger it is really one of the biggest problems of Nigeria today and who know for a fact that quite a number of influential people in Nigeria are actually participating in that despoliation. You have been linked to some oil companies?
(VP): No, no, I?m not linked to any oil companies. I?m not in the oil business.
(SR): People have mentioned Emeka Offor for example?
(VP): We have never been partners in any business whatsoever.
(SR): So then how do you intend to hold accountable, people like Babangida for sure we know has numerous dealings with oil companies in the Niger Delta.
(VP): Honestly I don?t know. You see, you have to be the Minister of Petroleum or the President to know anything about the oil licenses and I have never been anything of those things. I have never been the President and I?ve never been the minister of Petroleum to know those things. Honestly I am totally blank about the petroleum sector. But I have said that I will appoint a minister to attend to the Niger Delta region specifically.
(SR): Totally blank? You mean that don?t have business in the petroleum sector?
(VP): You mean by personal businesses?
Yes?
(VP): My personal businesses are basically logistics and they are not only in Nigeria. They are all over Africa. They are in Angola, they are in Gabon, and they are in Cote d? Ivoire. So really, I can?t tell you much about the oil business in Nigeria.
(SR): I really was not trying to get into the logistics of the oil business. What is my point, my question was how you would address that, since we know that there are vested interests, people like Mohammed Babangida has an oil bloc, he was not Vice President, and he was not President, and he was not Petroleum Minister and look at Danjuma?
(VP): We would not have known if there were no disagreements between him (Danjuma) and the government, because since there was a disagreement between him and the government and they went to court, that was how we knew as members of the public know aside. From that we know that he sold 40% of his shares in his oil company for instance and he made billions of dollars from that sale of his minority shares. So that was another way that we found out that he had oil blocs.
(SR): What I?m trying to say is that how do you intend, knowing this fact now, If you become President are you ever going to make it open, the names of those who owns oil blocs in Nigeria?
(VP): Very, very, very open. I cannot understand why these things cannot be open. I cannot understand why it cannot come to the Federal Executive Council.
(SR): You?re saying it doesn?t?
(VP): No, we have never treated anything from the use of petroleum in the Federal Executive Council.
(SR): That?s very interesting. Do you not own an oil bloc?
(VP): No, no, no please, I don?t even know what an oil bloc looks like. The only thing that I know is that a few months back the President brought??Ghana-must-go? to each member of the Federal Executive Council
(SR): Of money?
(VP): No, not of money, of documents, this is where all the contracts and approvals in the last 7 years he said the council should ratify.
(SR): Wow!
(VP): And they are still there?
(SR): Did you ratify it?
(VP): What else are you going to do? The President said he had approved all, and all of the council members are his appointees.
(SR): Sir, at that point couldn?t you just have blown his cover?
(VP): Wait a moment.
(SR): Bring your own ?Ghana-must-go? home and give them to me so that we can just expose all of this.
(VP): It?s still there, it?s still there.
(SR): Are you going to be able to get copies to us?
(VP): When you come to Nigeria I?ll give you all the documents
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