FT: Are you concerned at the level of violence and irregularities during state elections last weekend? Obasanjo: I won’t say I am absolutely unconcerned. But I am not concerned to the point that I would say that we haven’t had a reasonably and fairly good election. It’s not by any means a perfect election but there is no human arrangement you can describe as perfect until when we get to God and eternity, we are meeting perfection. Whatever we do is relative and I believe it is relatively good enough.
FT: Are you concerned at the level of violence and irregularities during state elections last weekend?
Obasanjo: I won’t say I am absolutely unconcerned. But I am not concerned to the point that I would say that we haven’t had a reasonably and fairly good election. It’s not by any means a perfect election but there is no human arrangement you can describe as perfect until when we get to God and eternity, we are meeting perfection. Whatever we do is relative and I believe it is relatively good enough.
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FT: But has there been any improvement in the conduct of elections since those in 1999 and 2003?
A: Well in terms of what we are using now there have been improvements. The registration of voters is definitely an improvement. The organisation of INEC bringing electronics into what they are doing is an improvement…
FT: That has not stopped more worrying trends such as the stuffing of ballot boxes, the violence, the rival gangs controlling ballot boxes.
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A: I think those are few. Of course it doesn’t matter if it is only one. That is bad enough. I planned the security but I never planned for people snatching ballot boxes. I didn’t plan for that and the planning really should be the responsibility of INEC but the INEC chairman told me really that he never thought that should be an issue. Now that that has been an issue we have to plan for it next time, on Saturday.
FT: But do you think there were some states where the vote was sufficiently questionable that the result was not credible? Rivers State for example where Dino was reporting.
A: Well, what did you see?
FT: In Rivers State I moved around, I saw ballot stuffing, in Ikwerri no result sheets were to be found anywhere and polling results were not issued outside the polling stations in accordance with the electoral law. And, a measure of coercion.
A: To ask people to vote?
FT: To coerce people to vote for one party or the other.
A: As I said, I will not describe the process of the election as perfect but I would hate to say that the imperfection is of such monumental level that it will have significantly altered the result. I may be right or wrong in that. I cannot swear because I was not in every location. But I believe that…if you have sufficient evidence (of electoral malpractice) you can go to tribunal…
…We will get there. We must be cautious about wholesale condemnation. I just believe let us make use of what we have. Let us correct what is wrong. Let us move on. As I said, election rigging from the point of multiple registration is now limited. Now election rigging from stuffing the ballot box is there. (We must now see) what can we do to change that.
FT: Is picking the right candidates to run, candidates who will continue correcting the system, as important at this stage to you as the elections themselves?
A: I agree with you and I would say, taking all things together, the calibre and quality of men who have come out this time is a little bit better. You see every time we are improving. In 1999…many of them didn’t believe it would work. They said are you mad? What are you in this for?…Now the fact that people are actually angling for (participation in politics) is an indication that it is working. They want to be part of (the process).
People said to me in 1999, where do you think Nigeria is heading? Oh it will cease to exist in two years. Your administration won’t last one term. I would be the first one to admit we are not there yet. But whatever imperfection we find let us identify them and let us improve on them.
FT: So you believe the foundations for democratic rule are stronger now than when you took over?
A: I believe so. Definitely.
FT: Can you be confident though that the people who are coming in through these elections will work to strengthen it?
A: They have no choice…What I mean is there is no substitute for democracy. And if there is no substitute for democracy then you have no choice but to continue to improve on the apparatus of democracy.
FT: In the last eight years, some of your political allies in the states, and at many levels of government, have been involved in serious abuse of office. Is there any reason to believe that will change?
A: I believe there are two things that will happen to improve on that. One is the calibre of people coming in. Two is the pressure that the party can bring to bear. I will admit that my own party has not brought to bear the right amount of pressure to put people on the straight path.
FT: Is that something you will focus on when you leave the presidency?
A: Yes. That is something that will be my responsibility as the chairman of the board of trustees (of the ruling People’s Democratic party)
FT: Have you been disappointed by the way some of your political allies have governed? I believe for example that 31 of the 36 state governors were under investigation for corruption at one point.
A: The point is this. Everybody should be above board. And if you have any suspicion about anybody you should be able to say what is going on there?…I don’t regard that as investigation, I call it verification.
FT: But some of these state governors may end up in the dock?
A: Well, in the case of some state governors, even when they were still able to claim immunity…some of them are already in the dock. So when they cannot claim immunity (after the May 29th handover) well, God save them.
FT: Does the same apply to the vice president?
A: I don’t want to comment on the vice president. His case is in court.
FT: Looking forward it is clear that Nigeria in the years to come will have a huge opportunity, given the likelihood that the price of oil will remain high, and also that gas revenues will grow…
A: It is one thing to talk of price of oil. But we had price of oil before and it fizzled out. This time we are managing the price of oil better than before. In the past we used to have it, spend it. This time we have it and manage it and keep it.
FT: What do you see as the other principle achievements of your rule?
A: Well, when we came in, in 1999, many Nigerians had no hope. They didn’t even believe in the entity or project of Nigeria. Today it is a different story. To me the key is to make people have hope, to have a future in which they believe. Then all other things of course spin from that: the economy, institutions, the political situation.
FT: Obviously a tremendous amount of wealth has been generated in this period, but it is still concentrated in very few hands.
A: That will change. But it will not change overnight. If we can get around $2bn back from the (former dictator General Sani) Abacha (and his) family and put it into millennium development goal things, if we can put what we have saved from debt relief towards MDG targets, then we are in the right position.
If we are now increasing agricultural production by as much as 8 per cent per annum, and we have done that for the last 3 years, then we are making progress. If we can give a pride of place to small and medium enterprises, then we are making progress. If we can reduce the absolute poverty from 74 to 54 per cent then we are making progress. So, we are moving.
FT: But Mr President while business might be booming, some would say it is booming for a system of business oligarchs, a small cabale..
A: I was in South Korea in the eighties and the people who grew the South Korean economy were about six. The Daewos of this world, the Samsungs. But they allow it to percolate down.
FT: Who are the equivalent in Nigeria?
A: We are coming up. We are having people. I have said to Nigerians, young men and young women that look, why can’t we have a Nigerian among the three richest persons in the world in the next ten years? Why are the others making it and we are not making it? What makes the Russians oligarchy or whatever you call it, in China in India, more different? Because what is important is that if you are in that position you must have social conscience, social responsibility and social discipline.
FT: When you won office in 1999 two of the priorities you set yourself, one was power generation without which those SMEs you were talking about can’t compete, and another was to bring stability and development back to the Niger Delta. Are you disappointed by the results?A: Not at all. Tomorrow I am going to commission one of the eleven power stations we are building. There is no country in the world that is building that much power stations at one time.
FT: But it has taken a lot longer than you thought?
A: When we came in, we didn’t know how deep the rot was. I thought once you remove the first layer of people in NEPA (Nigerian Electric Power Authority) that would solve the problem. My minister…I had to remove him from that ministry because one year on and he did not know his right from his left. That was how bad the situation was. We removed the second group. And until very close to the end of my first term, I did not get to the depths of the rot.
FT: Do you think you still need another term to get to the depths?
A: Oh no. I have got to the depths. I am doing the right thing now.
FT: What about the (explosive situation in the Oil producing) Niger delta. That seems very worrying now.
A: …what I believe is that we have to rebuild the community. It is not only in the Niger delta, it is something that has eaten deep all over. Because even if you get these militia boys out, you still need a community to receive them after you have, I would use the word “refurbish” them.
FT: In 2002 I remember the Ogumudia report concluded that many of these groups had been put together and groomed by politicians?
A: I think in this election not so much of that. Particularly in 2003 there was more of that than these elections.
FT: Some people are concerned that in the aftermath of this election, you are going to try to remain present behind the scenes, anchoring the new government and influencing it.
A: In my part of the world we have a saying that the kingmaker is the first that the king kills. But it is only an unwise kingmaker that will allow the king he has made to kill him. Because if you have made a king, as soon as the king is on the throne you run. And it should be that the king will say, eh, where is he gone, I need him?
FT: Where will you run to?
A: My farm.
FT: So there will be no role for you as a rock behind the new government to ensure reforms continue?
A: My reforms will be continued by those who come in. But I have a role in my party, my party has prepared a role for me and I will dutifully discharge that.
FT: You seem very relaxed Mr President…You don’t have any regrets, things you felt you could have done that you haven’t?
A: There are things like I said, NEPA, electricity. If I had known as soon as I came in how deep the rot was I would have reacted maybe differently and maybe more expeditiously. And maybe the power stations we are building now which we started in 2004 maybe would have started in 2003. But again, of course you will have a learning process.
FT: This oil-licensing round you are having in 2 or 3 weeks time. Why is it necessary to rush it through during this transition period?
A: Do we have to hold up and say wait. It is all part of the programme. The government that is coming in will inherit both liabilities and assets and these will be part of the assets.
FT: But there are going to be suspicions that it is motivated by a desire to make money at the last minute?
A: There has never been money from this. We ask you to bid. You bid and then it is transparently done. You bid 11, he bids 12 and you get it. So what is the money to me?
If you say to me you want to build a 2000 megawatts power station therefore you want a particular block X, I say ok. If someone bids 20 for that block X, I say are you willing to bid 20 and build the power station as well. So I say my policy is to use what I have to get what I need.
FT: Have these bidding rounds marked a watershed in terms of a shift towards Asia?
A: No we are not towards anybody. We will reward anyone who is the highest bidder. I don’t want to see your colour. What matters to me is the size of your money.
FT: But has the involvement of Asia and China in particular, has that enabled this part of the world to establish some distance in relations with the West?
A: No my policy is keep your old friends but make new ones.
FT: If you look at your two terms in office, would you see the first as one you had to establish authority, and the second term the one in which you acted?
A: I was obviously more active in my second term than in my first term. Now when you have a situation where you have not had political activities for 50 years and you came on board with the scepticism of people who believed it would not work, the first thing I had to do was to ensure that we had all hands on deck. Even though I won the election in 1999 with almost two-thirds majority we had people from other two parties in my government as ministers as board members.
That was necessary to give everbody a sense of belonging, having a stake. And it paid off. Also I relied more on the politicians than I relied on technocrats in my cabinet in my first term. I had more of technocrats in the second term than I had in the first term.
FT: In your second term you have been less popular and you are leaving a controversial figure.
A: No reformers have left…Jesus Christ was even crucified. Prophet Mohammed was driven out of his home town. Churchill was called a warmonger but he won the war. Look, this job is not a popularity contest, my dear.
FT: One last question. If the Vice President, Atiku Abubakar wins the election on Saturday, will you still hand over to him on May 29th?
A: Nigerians will decide that on Saturday. I don’t pick my successor. Whoever they vote for I am duty bound.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007
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